Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Saratoga, CA
Has anyone ever heard their battery cooling system in their Outlander PHEV come on during Level 2 charging, or when simply plugged in to a Level 2 charger after the car is done charging? I know that the cooling comes on when using CHAdeMO but I have never heard the fans or compressor start up during Level 2 charging.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:18 am
Posts: 30
Open the hood and look at the coolant tank :) it’s disturbing


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
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Location: Saratoga, CA
Looked under the hood this morning. It wasn't very hot, and I didn't hear any fans, but the coolant in one of the tanks did feel warm. Maybe the pump was operating without the fans or compressors?


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
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Location: Dee Why
STS134 wrote:
Looked under the hood this morning. It wasn't very hot, and I didn't hear any fans, but the coolant in one of the tanks did feel warm. Maybe the pump was operating without the fans or compressors?


That would be cooling the charger, the coolant circulates through that.

The battery is cooled by an evaporator from the aircon compressor.. that is unlikely to be required in level 2 charging.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Location: Saratoga, CA
HHL wrote:
That would be cooling the charger, the coolant circulates through that.

The battery is cooled by an evaporator from the aircon compressor.. that is unlikely to be required in level 2 charging.

Really depends on the ambient temperature. The battery cannot be cooler than the ambient temp, and if I'm Level 2 charging on a very hot day and it's 38C in my garage, I would expect the AC compressor to come on. Teslas apparently *always* control the temp on their battery packets, even when the car is off, unless the battery charge level falls below 5%. Now a PHEV doesn't have the capacity to run the AC compressor for hours, but I would expect that the Outlander PHEV should at least be able to do it when charging (as the power is coming from the mains at that point). Given the roughly 10-20% power losses that you get when you put energy into and take energy out of a battery, and if the system is charging at around 3 kW, I would expect around 300-500W of heat to be generated in the battery and that the cells would be at least 3-5C above ambient temperature...and in the case of 38C ambient, 43C is way too hot for those cells, especially if you can run the AC and keep them at 28C.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 285
Location: Dee Why
I think you'll find that the charging efficiency of the battery is rather better than the figures you quote. In fact, it can be as high as 95% for Li-Ion (not including losses in the charger). At the maximum charge rate of Level2 (about C/.25), very little heat would be generated. I have never noticed the aircon compressor coming on during charging, and it can get a bit warm at times here in Australia. I think the fan in the battery pack would come on first. Anyway, interesting subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
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Location: Poland
Outside temperature, cabin temperature and battery temperature are not tight correlated

I often find in summer, after leaving for 8h my car under the sun ... outside temperature of ~33 deg ... cabin temperature ~45deg ... but battery at the start is around ~26 deg

The battery is relative well isolated and always on the shadow .. so not much impacted by outside temperature

After 20min drive ... the temperature of battery rise ~8 deg ... and if I recall right only above 35deg the battery "cooling" kick in

About the power lost on charger ... yes total efficiency is around 90% ... but biggest power lost is inside the charger and not on the lithium battery .. charging at 3kw battery rated 12kw .. so at 0.25C .. this does not cause any increase of temperature of the battery ... per experience charging my hobby lithium batteries at 1C, these never change their temperature (ok .. normally these are never less then 10C or 30C capable battery so with much lower IR .... our PHEV battery is a 5C capable battery .. anyhow charging at 0.25C should not cause any noticeable difference in cell temperature ... unless we consider very cold battery temperature which cause an increase of IR)


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
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Location: Saratoga, CA
Yeah, I would expect fans to come on first, then AC if fans are insufficient. Interestingly, a friend of mine drove his Cayenne S E-Hybrid to my house, about 1 week after I got my Outlander PHEV, and at the time, I hadn't yet installed my Level 2 EVSE. I plugged my Level 1 (120V) EVSE into his Cayenne, and the front grill slats opened up and the fans and pumps started up to cool the battery. It was an abnormally hot day. Ambient temp was around 35C, and the car had just been driven, but still, it was only Level 1! Now I have never charged my Outlander PHEV in those types of conditions (haven't had a chance to, because it hasn't been this hot recently) but I really wonder if there would be any sort of cooling delivered to the battery at all when it gets that hot, whether via fans or AC or both.

I am a bit preplexed by Mitsubishi's decision to go with air cooling rather than liquid cooling. Liquids generally have a higher heat capacity than air, and can deliver more consistent temperatures, especially if the pumps/fans are on. Obviously this isn't a Leaf, with its only passive air cooling, and at least has active fans and AC systems helping to cool the battery, but if the fans aren't coming on during L2 charging on hot days, I'm not sure that the system is doing its job (which is why I asked if anyone has ever heard the fans or compressors come on during those conditions).


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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:36 am 
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Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK
VW and Porsche seemed to survive successfully for many years using only air cooling. It also avoids having liquids and high voltages in close proximity!

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 Post subject: Re: Battery Cooling Ever Come On During Level 2 Charging?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Saratoga, CA
Well I just found this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svf1b-51OeM

This guy claims that even when it's hot, the battery cooling fans and AC compressor do NOT come on during normal (level 2) charging. If that's true, it's pretty disturbing. I can understand not running the cooling system when the car is parked like the Tesla vehicles do; a PHEV does not necessarily have the energy reserves to do it. But not starting the battery cooling system when the car is connected to the mains? No excuse for that. So what are the thresholds for turning on the cooling system while charging? I think it should be something like > 30C, fans on, and > 35C, AC on.


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