E85/Ethanol compatibility ??

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

Help Support Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

krouebi

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
23
Hi,

Has anyone by chance seen whether the Outlander PHEV can also be run on E85/ethanol ??

Krouebi
 
Isn't it just upgraded seals that need to handle the more corrosive E85? And I think it's a requirement that all new vehicles (in certain states at least) can handle ethanol?
 
Hi Klaus,

I know that the US versions probably have to be at least partly ethanol-compatible (but probably not E85).

I was asking about the EU versions - I spend a considerable part of my time in France, and there's some difference between paying 1.50 EUR/l for Eurosuper or 0.93 EUR/l for E85.

Kind regards,
Krouebi
 
I would agree you can use E10 but not more than that, or else you need to buy a kit that is compatible for E85.
 
I drive a Saab 9-5 BioPower on E85 today waiting for my Outlander to be delivered.
There are a few problems with Ethanol (and diesel for that matter) that might explain why the PHEV only runs on petrol.
Starting your engine cold on E85 and diesel is a bit rough, the engine in the Outlander has to start and stop frequently and they want it to be smooth and seamless.
Injectors has a tendency to clog up running on E85 and you are required to run regular petrol every five tanks or so to clean out the injectors (a lot of starting and stopping will make this worse).
When you are running on E85 you fuel consumption goes up about 30% giving you a lot less range and the Outlander only has a 40 liter fuel tank.
The increased consumption also eats up most of financial gain of using E85.
E85 perhaps gives some ecological benefits since it's renewable but the way E85 is produced today it's debatable.
 
Fragge said:
I drive a Saab 9-5 BioPower on E85 today waiting for my Outlander to be delivered.
There are a few problems with Ethanol (and diesel for that matter) that might explain why the PHEV only runs on petrol.
Starting your engine cold on E85 and diesel is a bit rough, the engine in the Outlander has to start and stop frequently and they want it to be smooth and seamless.
Injectors has a tendency to clog up running on E85 and you are required to run regular petrol every five tanks or so to clean out the injectors (a lot of starting and stopping will make this worse).
When you are running on E85 you fuel consumption goes up about 30% giving you a lot less range and the Outlander only has a 40 liter fuel tank.
The increased consumption also eats up most of financial gain of using E85.
E85 perhaps gives some ecological benefits since it's renewable but the way E85 is produced today it's debatable.


That is what my neighbor is experiencing right now. It seems like E85 really decrease the overall performance of the engine.
 
nosense said:
That is what my neighbor is experiencing right now. It seems like E85 really decrease the overall performance of the engine.
Well actually the performance increases(at least horsepower) on E85 since you can run higher boost on E85 if the car is adapted for it. The 9-5 i drive gives 185 bhp on petrol and 210 bhp on E85. Many tuner cars that run high boost use E85. But there are downsides to E85 that might be to apparent on a hybrid vehicle. Especially non turbo engines.
 
Fragge said:
nosense said:
That is what my neighbor is experiencing right now. It seems like E85 really decrease the overall performance of the engine.
Well actually the performance increases(at least horsepower) on E85 since you can run higher boost on E85 if the car is adapted for it. The 9-5 i drive gives 185 bhp on petrol and 210 bhp on E85. Many tuner cars that run high boost use E85. But there are downsides to E85 that might be to apparent on a hybrid vehicle. Especially non turbo engines.


Can you list down some of the downsides of using E85. I'm curious to know them.
 
Well I did list a few in my previous post, but ok.

Negative about E85:
Higher consumption (about 30%).
Less range.
Rough start, esp. in cold weather. Almost unusable in the winter(below -10 degrees Celsius).
Corrosive to rubber and plastics, the car needs special tank and hoses that can handle Ethanol.
Clogs up the injectors.
The handle at the gas pump can't be locked in the "on" position, you have to hold it the entire time while refueling (prevents a static discharge).


Positive about E85:
More power, enables higher boost.
Renewable
Gives you tax benefits
Cheaper
 
NO YOU CANNOT !!! You will burn your valves etc. I had to have mine pumped dry last week when I got 85% bio-ethanol by mistake.

It can handle 15% bio Ethanol though.
 
Fuel systems for gasoline/petrol vehicles have been ethanol safe since about 1996. If the car can use the standard 10% ethanol/90% petrol in most parts of the world, then it already has alcohol compatible rubbers and plastics. There aren't any seals that can handle E10 but not E100.

Methanol is corrosive, but ethanol is not. Ethanol is what we drink.

Ethanol burns colder than gasoline. (Yes, fire is fire. Ethanol has lower volatility - it requires more heat to vaporize to burn and that energy comes from the engine. The net engine temperature is lower.)

Above comments about winter starting are correct - the fuel system must inject more E85 to get the engine running. However...most engines will run normally with about E50. In the US, with E10 regular gas, that's roughly half a tank of E85 and half a tank of E10. I've been using that mix in the short San Antonio winters and E85 in the summer with other modern cars. So far, I've tried E50 and the Outlander starts fine.

Fuel economy will decrease. Ethanol can produce similar economy to gasoline in a higher compression engine as it's about 105 octane. But the economy will decrease in our lower compression engine. However - as ethanol from plants uses current carbon and is roughly carbon neutral even with our fossil fueled farming system, that's the benefit - miles or kms/unit of fossil carbon.

Ethanol is clean burning. It's an oxygenated fuel. It won't cause injectors to clog. Gasoline, on the other hand, is a chemical soup and it routinely causes sludge and varnish in the fuel system. For older vehicles, use a fuel system cleaner in a few tanks before starting with more than about E20 as the ethanol will clean the fuel system. The ethanol isn't causing the trouble - it's fixing the problem.

Ethanol will absorb water in the fuel system. Gasoline won't. It's possible to have a layer of water in the bottom of a fuel tank with gasoline above. To 'dry' the fuel system, we use...methanol. ;)

Is the car 'certified' to use ethanol in volumes higher than 10%? No. Will it run year round in most parts of the world on E50? Yes. Will it run in warmer climates on E85 in the summer? Yes.

FAQ: https://www.change2e85.com/E85-Myths-FAQs

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=22688050361
David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: Fueling an Ethanol Revolution for the 21st Century
 
The official line from the manual, at least the USA manual, is ethanol up to 10% only (3-45):

A mixture of up to 10 % ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90 % unleaded gasoline may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane number is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded gasoline.
 
Woodman411 said:
The official line from the manual, at least the USA manual, is ethanol up to 10% only (3-45):

A mixture of up to 10 % ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90 % unleaded gasoline may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane number is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded gasoline.
That's a standard line for any non-flex fuel engine with an emissions profile that meets EPA requirements. It says that the vehicle will run the gasoline/ethanol blend found in most of the filling stations in the country. It does not, however, say that other blends won't work or won't meet emissions requirements.

Further to the 'ethanol will burn your valves' belief.

https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236109002981
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26277630?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
This paper presents engine dynamometer testing and modeling analysis of ethanol compared to gasoline at part load conditions where the engine was not knock-limited with either fuel. The purpose of this work was to confirm the efficiency improvement for ethanol reported in published papers, and to quantify the components of the improvement. Testing comparing E85 to E0 gasoline was conducted in an alternating back-to-back manner with multiple data points for each fuel to establish high confidence in the measured results. Approximately 4% relative improvement in brake thermal efficiency (BTE) was measured at three speed-load points. Effects on BTE due to pumping work and emissions were quantified based on the measured engine data, and accounted for only a small portion of the difference. Approximately half of the improvement was accounted for by the fact that the heat of vaporization (HoV) of the fuel detracts from the heat release measured in the combustion bomb used in the determination of heating value, but does not detract from the heat released during combustion in the engine. Engine modeling indicated that the remaining difference in BTE is due to lower burned gas temperatures and consequently lower heat transfer losses. The lower temperatures are due to greater charge cooling and to lower adiabatic flame temperature. CO₂ emissions at part load are reduced about 7% for ethanol compared to gasoline. Approximately 4% CO₂ benefit is due to improved thermal efficiency, and about 3% is due to the increased hydrogen-to-carbon ratio (H/C) of ethanol.

It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ;)) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
 
AndyH said:
It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ;)) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.

Using e50/e85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle can void the manufacturer warranty (https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RFA-Auto-Manufacturer-Fuel-Recommendations-2012-2013-2014-2013.10.30.pdf ). In the USA, specifically for the Outlander PHEV, that could be throwing away a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty - that is significant. Please note that I'm not making a point on whether e50/e85 does any damage. But if one has *any* issues with the powertrain, regardless of the root cause, and the manufacturer discovers e50/e85 was used, they can (and probably will) void the warranty.
 
AndyH said:
and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
That is only true if your injectors could inject an infinite amount of fuel. Since an increased amount of ethanol in the fuel requires the engine to inject more fuel to sustain an correct A/f ratio the injectors need to be capable of this. Otherwise a lean situation could occur and cause knock/engine damage.
There is obviously a margin on the capacity of the injectors, but for non turbo cars that margin is not as big as one might think. If a repeated knock situation would occur the engine management system would raise an fault and check engine light would probably light up.

So, is it OK to run E50? Probably.
Can engine damage occur? Perhaps, if the car runs lean for an extended period of time it might cause increased wear on the combustion chamber.
 
Woodman411 said:
AndyH said:
It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ;)) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.

Using e50/e85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle can void the manufacturer warranty (https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RFA-Auto-Manufacturer-Fuel-Recommendations-2012-2013-2014-2013.10.30.pdf ). In the USA, specifically for the Outlander PHEV, that could be throwing away a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty - that is significant. Please note that I'm not making a point on whether e50/e85 does any damage. But if one has *any* issues with the powertrain, regardless of the root cause, and the manufacturer discovers e50/e85 was used, they can (and probably will) void the warranty.
Plus: the car does keep logs, so the factory will be able to deduce the running on inappropriate fuel from the readouts.
 
Woodman411 said:
AndyH said:
It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ;)) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.

Using e50/e85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle can void the manufacturer warranty (https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RFA-Auto-Manufacturer-Fuel-Recommendations-2012-2013-2014-2013.10.30.pdf ). In the USA, specifically for the Outlander PHEV, that could be throwing away a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty - that is significant. Please note that I'm not making a point on whether e50/e85 does any damage. But if one has *any* issues with the powertrain, regardless of the root cause, and the manufacturer discovers e50/e85 was used, they can (and probably will) void the warranty.
In the US, parts of a warranty can only be hurt if the part or change or fuel actually did damage. Since modern closed-loop electronically controlled engines are constantly adjusting the mixture and timing for fuels from 100% gasoline (which is actually different formulations in different parts of the country and also for winter and summer blends) plus different combinations of ethanol up to the rated 10%, going to 50/50 doesn't change anything the car's not already doing. The fuel system is already designed for ethanol, so nothing will break.

The only thing that could happen is if someone was going beyond E85 - it's possible to get past the allowable range of the ignition/injection computer - and that could set a check engine light for lean mixture or something similar. Add a bit of gas to the tank, drive, and the light clears. Or use an OBD scanner and clear the code. Either way - there's no harm and no warranty problem.

ETA...also, for the linked warranty statements - notice how the statements mash ethanol and methanol together? Methanol is corrosive and will mangle fuel system plastics - ethanol will not.

(I was a commercial fuel and lube consultant for about 12 years before retiring the second time. I worked with mostly commercial fleet customers - operating V6 Ford Ranger pickups to class 8 semis. I also sponsored a guy that ran a methanol-fueled drag truck. Methanol is ugly stuff. I did a ton of self study, picked the brains of folks that work in certified fuel and lube labs, had annual continuing ed courses, and did a lot of lab testing. I wouldn't recommend anything that I've not already done, and I don't do anything without a ton of research first. FWIW.)
 
Fragge said:
AndyH said:
and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
That is only true if your injectors could inject an infinite amount of fuel. Since an increased amount of ethanol in the fuel requires the engine to inject more fuel to sustain an correct A/f ratio the injectors need to be capable of this. Otherwise a lean situation could occur and cause knock/engine damage.
There is obviously a margin on the capacity of the injectors, but for non turbo cars that margin is not as big as one might think. If a repeated knock situation would occur the engine management system would raise an fault and check engine light would probably light up.

So, is it OK to run E50? Probably.
Can engine damage occur? Perhaps, if the car runs lean for an extended period of time it might cause increased wear on the combustion chamber.
Injectors are pulse-width modulated. They can be completely closed, completely open, and anywhere in between. The computer, with feedback from outside air temp, engine temp, RPM, throttle position, and oxygen in the exhaust, can run the injectors through the allowable range of the look-up table. And the computer is good from below sea level to beyond 14,000 feet above sea level, winter and summer. As for knock, regular gas is about 97 octane, and ethanol is 105. Ethanol is added to gas specifically to increase the octane rating for what would otherwise be really crappy, substandard fuel. More alcohol means a premium octane rating for less money than regular.

I understand if nobody wants to take my word for it. I provided some references - do your own research. Keep something in mind: We can buy a box that connects between the computer and the injectors that increases fuel flow when the engine's cold, and doesn't do anything once the engine's warm. These boxes allow our engines to run up to 100% ethanol. I've not run a box - I'm only used regular stock engines. I had a 2006 Ford Ranger with a V6 (not a flex fuel engine) that I ran E85 all summer, and used E50 in the winter. I could do that because San Antonio isn't known for cross country skiing. :lol: In the winter, on days below freezing, it would take two or three engine turns to start on 50/50. 40% ethanol had the same cold-start performance as E10 down to about zero F. Engine control computers have to have a full range of adjustment ability so that a car will be smooth and within the EPA emissions profile on a summer day in Death Valley, and a mid-winter morning on the top of Pikes Peak. We flatlanders can use that adjustment range to reduce our fossil carbon output if we want. The only thing I do differently when running E50-E85 is that I don't extend oil changes - I change on the severe schedule, which is what short trips in hot, city driving should be.

At the very least, I wanted to correct some of the ethanol myths in circulation from the fossil fuel industry (like the corrosiveness myth, or the burning valves myth, or the plugged injectors myth). Keep in mind that Brazil uses more ethanol than gasoline - and every auto maker on the planet sells to the Brazilian market. The difference is the range of the fuel injection system's look-up table. Everything else on the engine is the same. Start with the SAE papers I linked. Ethanol and ICE has been studied since we switched from electric and steam to ICE in the Americas. A bit more fuel in the oil is the only down side - and lube oils are already designed to take that into account - and have been since 1996.
 
AndyH said:
Injectors are pulse-width modulated. They can be completely closed, completely open, and anywhere in between. The computer, with feedback from outside air temp, engine temp, RPM, throttle position, and oxygen in the exhaust, can run the injectors through the allowable range of the look-up table. And the computer is good from below sea level to beyond 14,000 feet above sea level, winter and summer. As for knock, regular gas is about 97 octane, and ethanol is 105. Ethanol is added to gas specifically to increase the octane rating for what would otherwise be really crappy, substandard fuel. More alcohol means a premium octane rating for less money than regular.
I understand if nobody wants to take my word for it. I provided some references - do your own research.
I've done a fair bit of tuning on turbo cars running E85 (I Live i Sweden and we have one of the most established E85 infrastructures in the world) so I have a bit of experience on the matter.
Yes, ethanol blends gives you higher octane rating and a more controllable burn that reduces the risk of knock. But, you still need to be able to inject enough fuel to compensate the higher ethanol blend to maintain a correct a/f ratio. The injectors can only flow a certain amount of fuel within the time frame they have to inject it. Therefore you risk "running out of injector" causing a lean condition and overheating the combustion chamber causing knock despite the higher octane rating. Where the limit is on the Outlander I do no know, but usually the manufacturer spec the injectors pretty close to the needed capacity on non turbo cars because it gives them better control over them. A unnecessary large injector would be less sensitive and harder to control.
On turbo cars you usually go up in injector size when running ethanol to compensate but it also allows you to run higher boost due to the increase in fuel amount gives a more efficient cooling of the combustion chamber.

As I said a E50 blend is probably fine in the Outlander, but you can only be sure by putting a wide band lambda sensor in the exhaust and monitor the a/f ratio at WOT and high RPM.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, Fragge! I can only speak for what I know about how US cars are configured. When I started experimenting with biofuels (biodiesel with a pair of VW TDI Passat, and ethanol with the Ford pickup), I planned to add a separate wideband oxygen sensor to the cars to help with tuning. What I found was that both the B4 Passats and the '06 Ranger were already fitted with wideband sensors (more like 'wideband enough for this sort of experimentation). 'Throwing' an error code when the mixture is beyond system capability (too lean or too rich) is required by the US emissions control laws, so it's really easy for an experimenter to find the limits.

I completely agree with you about the possibility of injectors not being able to flow enough fuel and think you're absolutely right! While I don't expect that US tuning is as broad as that used in Brazil for their 'up to 100% ethanol' fuel option, I can say that our tuning has to be fairly broad in order to allow for the full range of temperatures and altitudes. We have roads at altitudes between Death Valley's 282 feet (86 meters) below sea level to at least 14,252 feet (4344 meters) for the White Mountain pass in California. The temperature range is wide as well, from the Arctic Circle in Alaska to the deserts of the SW. As I reported, I was able to run E85 down to about 40°F (4°C), and E50 down to 32F/0C in my unmodified Ford with only minor impact on the first engine start of the day. I expect to be able to do the same with my Outlander.

This isn't new - similar findings were reported by David Blume in his book "Alcohol Can Be a Gas". As of the publication date (2007), he found that ALL cars on US roads could run 50/50 year round. (Blume reports that the 'cold start device' fitted to Brazilian cars is a small 'primer' that injects fuel from an under-hood/bonnet tank - which is filled with 50/50 gas/ethanol.) Additionally, since the electronic boxes on the market in the US (that are connected between the computer and injectors) are able to command enough fuel flow for year-round operation on E85, I'm guessing there's enough injector capability by default.

E50 is working fine in my Outlander so far. Next tank I'll move to E85 (which here can range from E83 to E50 depending on the season).
 
Back
Top