Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1119
Location: Poland
Zuikkis wrote:
I tried PHEV Watchdog with "KONNWEI" bluetooth adapter. It works otherwise fine, but I can't get it display the "battery condition" page. It's always blank. I waited like 5 minutes in case it was just being slow, but no. Other pages work fine.

However, I installed EvBatMon, it shows the stats correctly. :) It showed 34Ah capacity and 91%, but are these comparable to PHEV Watchdogs values? Pretty good still? MY15 car, registered in 08/14, with 71000km.

I unistalled EvBatMon already, Play store gives the money back if you uninstall in 10 minutes or so.. I'm not interested in using these apps daily, but I thought it's good to check the stats.


A bit off topic

Battery Condition with PhevWatchDog is present in the 2nd page (so 1 swipe left, from the starting page that is page 3)
The Battery Condition menu in the PhevWatchDog ... is based on archived data ... so maybe on your first usage, it did still not created the needed records for display properly this page.

Both EvBatMon and PheVWatchDog report battery condition consistently .. especially if you look at the Ah result .. the % result might be wrong in some cases since latest PHEV have 44Ah as new, vs 38Ah from the initial PHEV ... I'm not sure if any of the two application detect precisely which PHEV is new and which is an old one


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:19 am
Posts: 39
Ah indeed, you are right.. Silly me.

PHEV Watchdog is showing the same values.

I attached the screenshot mostly because of the hilarious add placement. :D "Diesel never dies"


Attachment:
4445339540371358032.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:01 pm
Posts: 18
Trex wrote:
Trex wrote:
Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though. ;)

Regards Trex.


After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:


From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:59 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
plugev wrote:
Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable


Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?

Now we have a transferable 5 year warranty, from memory, before anything else that may apply so you have time on your side IMO.

But only you can decide whether the lack of range is affecting you.

Now if you decide that you want to do something about your drive battery then we can talk about that later but I am pretty sure you will need to get your BMU (Battery Management Unit ) recalibrated to show the true capacity or SOH. Just look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about.

plugev wrote:

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?


Ok to me those amounts sound excessive but my dealer is in a "town" in NSW compared to a city like Brisbane where they seem to know how to charge more for even a basic service like a schooner of beer. ;)

Now I have just had a 5 year service done on my oldest PHEV (bought new) about 2 weeks ago so I will have a look around and see if I can see the price I paid for the 3 year service a couple of years ago.

Regards Trex.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
Zuikkis wrote:
I tried PHEV Watchdog with "KONNWEI" bluetooth adapter. It works otherwise fine, but I can't get it display the "battery condition" page. It's always blank. I waited like 5 minutes in case it was just being slow, but no. Other pages work fine.

However, I installed EvBatMon, it shows the stats correctly. :) It showed 34Ah capacity and 91%, but are these comparable to PHEV Watchdogs values? Pretty good still? MY15 car, registered in 08/14, with 71000km.

I unistalled EvBatMon already, Play store gives the money back if you uninstall in 10 minutes or so.. I'm not interested in using these apps daily, but I thought it's good to check the stats.


Yes IMO 91% @ 71000km is going good.

I actually prefer the EVbatmon app compared to the PHEV Watchdog but that is just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
misterbishi wrote:
Trex wrote:
Trex wrote:
Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though. ;)

Regards Trex.


After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:


From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.


He just probably needs the BMU recalibrated for the new battery IMO.

But don't warn him. I think he is happier when he is complaining. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1119
Location: Poland
Trex wrote:
plugev wrote:
Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable


Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?


...



But why ?

We all know very well that possible EV range is around 52km when SOH is 100%
When the car has 84%, in the same condition that allowed 52km EV range, this is EV range is now 43.6km
When the car has 76.3% .. this become 39.7km

The PHEV allows to discharge the battery only down to 30 or 25% SOC ... The calculation of SOC going down from 100% to 30%, is done by the PHEV based on the consumed current and the battery capacity (battery capacity = 38Ah * SOH) ... so using the same driving style, it cause an equal consumed current, and the only parameter left that determinate the EV range is the SOH

Everybody which own a PHEV since years and use OBD2 tools should know this very well ...

That means it is pointless to speak of EV range, and confuse people that they should adapt their driving style or whatsoever.

Yes ... SOH known by the PHEV , it might have an error due to the "inaccurate" BMU logic .. still it has been proven multiple times that SOH increase due to a Mitsubishi battery smoothing procedure (which should re-calibrate the BMU with the right SOH), normally it allows to gain a small percentage in the SOH which will disappear quite quickly

Furthermore .. each battery smoothing procedure ... does cause an additional "ageing" of the battery .. since it implies a deep discharge and a full charge ... both condition which are causing "wear" and reduce further the capacity of the battery.

In Australia Mitsubishi made a mistake stating in their "ads" that the PHEV battery will keep above 80% of SOH for the entire car life (which later on has been defined as 10 years) ... for a group of people in Australia, Mitsubishi has already agreed to provide a free battery replacement if the SOH get below 80% (as many time as this event happen inside the first 10 years of car life) .. this means ... everybody in Australia should be entitled to get the battery replaced for free if the SOH is below 80% ... unless the PHEV has been acquired after Mitsubishi removed the wrong ads from their web site.

So the suggestion for "plugev" is to go to the nearest qualified Mitsubishi service, and ask them to "fix" the battery .. it could be that after their classic battery smoothing the SOH might jump above 80% ... and this will save them temporary from not replacing the battery .. but if SOH is below 80% after their calibration procedure, PHEV owner in Australia has the right to get a replacement battery (new or refurbish as long as it has over 80% SOH), for free.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1119
Location: Poland
misterbishi wrote:

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.


I guess you refer to the wrong battery smoothing done over the Andy PHEV ...

The first time Mitsubishi address his problem, instead making any battery recalibration or replacing the battery .. they just reset the BMU making the PHEV ECU to believe the SOH was 100% ...

In this condition the BMU logic quickly detect the wrong SOH and it quickly reduce the SOH to the realistic one (which take some weeks/months, for the BMU logic design)

Months after this ... Mitsubishi agreed to properly replace the battery ... I'm not sure they did this already ... neither I seen some reports from him about how is the new battery


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:16 am
Posts: 7
elm70 wrote:
misterbishi wrote:

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.


I guess you refer to the wrong battery smoothing done over the Andy PHEV ...

The first time Mitsubishi address his problem, instead making any battery recalibration or replacing the battery .. they just reset the BMU making the PHEV ECU to believe the SOH was 100% ...

In this condition the BMU logic quickly detect the wrong SOH and it quickly reduce the SOH to the realistic one (which take some weeks/months, for the BMU logic design)

Months after this ... Mitsubishi agreed to properly replace the battery ... I'm not sure they did this already ... neither I seen some reports from him about how is the new battery


He got new battery. But it already down to 94.2% SOH.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1119
Location: Poland
Hamaudio wrote:

He got new battery. But it already down to 94.2% SOH.


Right ... these info are only in his YouTube channel .. not much on facebook ...

So ... I see he was losing 0.1Ah a day since he go the new battery (maybe even more .. just seen a screenshot of the watchdog which show a new battery condition car, for each day)
But at least now, while the car is parked, he gains some battery capacity ... (+0.4Ah in one of his video) ... so it sounds the BMU is now possibly a bit pessimistic over his battery SOH

Anyhow ... we don't know if this was a new battery: Mitsubishi sells 44Ah pack for the outlander now .. so possibly he got a refurbish battery or an old stock ... which might explain why the BMU quickly reduce the SOH from the original 100% down to a more accurate value.

For what I did check on my PHEV, the BMU correctly adjust the SOH ... in comparison to the current used for charging and the current used when discharging ... so ... in my view the SOH reported by the BMU is relative correct ... but maybe there are way to trick the logic for cause an optimistic or pessimistic view of the SOH in the BMU

PS: His channel is getting relative popular ... 1800 subscriber and over 300k views ... I did follow it a bit in the past .. but then ... I think I did put his channel in the ignore list ... 20min of video for get 2 lines of information/status ... is not worth for me


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