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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Dee Why
Trex wrote:
Trex wrote:
Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though. ;)

Regards Trex.


After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:


As an engineer, you should know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:59 pm
Posts: 24
Here are a couple of graphs from a recent unplugged ev youtube video. The first is Andy's car showing (in the brighter dots) his old battery on the left and brand new one on the right:

Image

This next one shows data from the 2019 models:

Image

Note the same rapid / almost vertical pattern of decreasing calculated SOH.

Yet older data does not show this pattern.

Is this whole thing simply an issue with the updated BMU software? Does anyone have data from a car before and after the latest BMU update?


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
HHL wrote:
Trex wrote:

After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:


As an engineer, you should know that the squeaky wheel gets grease! :lol:

:lol: :lol:
But as a engineer I know that all the wheels should get greased to stop a squeaky wheel showing up. 8-)

I think I am also starting to get an appreciation for the saying "Whinge and Win" because people will look after you just to hopefully shut you up. ;) :lol: .


Last edited by Trex on Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
Darkflow wrote:
Is this whole thing simply an issue with the updated BMU software?


Hi Darkflow,

Like I wrote previously in this thread:

Trex wrote:

I am not sure about this statement HHL. Now from the person on youtube I posted above says:

"Had the 2018 phev since Feb. After 20.000 km and battery capacity down to 93%according to watchdog, had car inspection and they suggested battery reprogramming, and they did a dbcam procedure. Since then battery capacity upto and remains at 98,5% and have driven 1000 km. My garage(Germany) doesn't understand all these problems, so the most important thing when buying a phev, which I love and am very happy with it.,is the 3xperience and quality of expertise at your garage. The extra education of the mechanics is expensive so my garage tells me."

Now we cannot tell from this if the person used DC charging but reading what he said made me go and check my new April 2018 PHEV and saw that the SOH was 91.84% with only 12,823 kms using EVbatmon. So according to the BMU I have lost approx 8% in approx 9 months with no DC charging and we have been babying the new PHEV's drive battery far more than my oldest PHEV.

Speaking of which ie my oldest PHEV you asked me back in the old Evbatmon thread I started:

Trex wrote:
HHL wrote:
Same here... works a treat.

Use an old Nextbook to run it. Very impressive....

My battery % is 91.4% (car built date is Mar 2014, 11,000km)

Care to share your info?


Sure.

Battery condition 90%.

Car built Feb 2014(bought April 2014), 31,415kms


Now this was posted Sun Dec 27, 2015 so nearly 2 years after it was built my oldest PHEV that we did not baby is approx the same as my new PHEV that we do. :roll:

Do I think my new PHEV is degraded this bad for real? No I do not. I think the BMU is being very pessimistic on the new PHEVs as some around here have noticed including the person I quoted above.

Will I bother to get my BMU recalibrated at this stage? Not sure. I may wait to see because it is not effecting the range we need while EVing but I would love to know for sure like the person I quoted above just to satisfy my curiosity. :geek:


Notice that section I wrote "I think the BMU is being very pessimistic on the new PHEVs as some around here have noticed including the person I quoted above."

This is what I think is shown in that 2019 model year graph you posted and to a lot of the other newer models including my 2018 model.

Now Mitsubishi have supposedly released a BMU update Ref C1811R.

Now my newest PHEV is due for its 1st service in early March 2019 ie a couple of weeks away and I am booked in to get a BMU recalibration (or "Auto Capacity Measured Procedure") and that BMU update done. Will let you know how I go.

Regards Trex.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Dee Why
Trex wrote:
Darkflow wrote:

Notice that section I wrote "I think the BMU is being very pessimistic on the new PHEVs as some around here have noticed including the person I quoted above."

This is what I think is shown in that 2019 model year graph you posted and to a lot of the other newer models including my 2018 model.

Now Mitsubishi have supposedly released a BMU update Ref C1811R.

Now my newest PHEV is due for its 1st service in early March 2019 ie a couple of weeks away and I am booked in to get a BMU recalibration (or "Auto Capacity Measured Procedure") and that BMU update done. Will let you know how I go.

Regards Trex.


the update will possibly lock out the "watchdog" so people don't get the "Black Dog" after looking at the data :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: Poland
Darkflow wrote:
Here are a couple of graphs from a recent unplugged ev youtube video. The first is Andy's car showing (in the brighter dots) his old battery on the left and brand new one on the right:

Note the same rapid / almost vertical pattern of decreasing calculated SOH.

Yet older data does not show this pattern.

Is this whole thing simply an issue with the updated BMU software? Does anyone have data from a car before and after the latest BMU update?


When they did update the BMU firmware ?

I got my car serviced 4 months ago, and I did not find anything different in the BMU .. except ... I believe my car stop the charging process earlier then the past ... possibly it was a bit overcharged before, helping on a bit of extra range, but at a cost of faster battery degradation if car left fully charged for too long.

There is an easy way to verify if the SOH know by the BMU is correct.

Car need to be driven in EV mode ideally till EV range is zero. Ideally in one shot, not into multiple segment .
After the "long" EV trip, car should be left unused without any charge , for over 2h.
After this time, it should be compared the SOC immediately after the trip and end after the rest. This the SOC is unchanged .. the BMU has a good idea about the SOH .. if the SOC goes significantly up, then SOH is underestimated .. it SOH does significantly down .. SOH is optimistic

I did monitor this on my PHEV .. and I find that SOH knowledge from the BMU is always a bit optimistic .. this is why the SOH is slowly declining over time .. I also find out that voltage after rest and after a trip, comparing two different time (months apart) but same trip .. show that this voltage is declining .. so .. yes SOH lost is real an not virtual.

I don't see how they could made a big mistake in the BMU firmware that could cause to have a pessimistic view on the SOH ... I believe some battery has less capacity then expected in the defined voltage bandwidth that is 4.10v down to 3.81v (30% SOC) ... since Mitsubishi decided to use the battery between these two voltage levels .. it is quite pointless to know if there is tons of capacity in AH left below 3.81V (rest voltage)


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: Poland
HHL wrote:

the update will possibly lock out the "watchdog" so people don't get the "Black Dog" after looking at the data :shock:


They will have to make lot of ECU firmware changes for make the watchdog blind

It will be also a bad decision ... I think people should know what is the real SOH of their battery .


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3404
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
elm70 wrote:
They will have to make lot of ECU firmware changes for make the watchdog blind.
Not perse. Just disable data item #18 in the BMU ECO PID list. Unfortunately, their MUT-III devices wouldn't be able to establish the capacity either, as they work exactly the same way.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:59 pm
Posts: 24
Thanks for the replies.

Quote:
When they did update the BMU firmware ?


An assumption on my part, which may well be wrong. After getting the "ICE may not start" recall service done, my predicted battery range went up from 50km to 75km and then slowly decreased to normal with driving, so I assumed that there may have been a BMU update.

Quote:
I don't see how they could made a big mistake in the BMU firmware that could cause to have a pessimistic view on the SOH ...


But if that is true, what is happening with the new models? On the trajectory they are showing, they'll be down to something like 70% SOH in a year or so. That can't be right.

Also, why is unplugged ev Andy's brand new battery showing the same behaviour, both the same as his old battery, and the same as the new larger battery models?


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: Poland
anko wrote:
elm70 wrote:
They will have to make lot of ECU firmware changes for make the watchdog blind.
Not perse. Just disable data item #18 in the BMU ECO PID list. Unfortunately, their MUT-III devices wouldn't be able to establish the capacity either, as they work exactly the same way.


:geek:
It does not sound a simple change.
They can't make their tools blinds to SOH
:ugeek:


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