Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:46 am 
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Darkflow wrote:

Quote:
I don't see how they could made a big mistake in the BMU firmware that could cause to have a pessimistic view on the SOH ...


But if that is true, what is happening with the new models? On the trajectory they are showing, they'll be down to something like 70% SOH in a year or so. That can't be right.

Also, why is unplugged ev Andy's brand new battery showing the same behaviour, both the same as his old battery, and the same as the new larger battery models?


Just looking at fuel level and not checking how much goes in and out .. is pointless

So ... cheking only SOH, and have no idea how far this is accurate, by monitoring the voltage/SOC update after rest and usage .. is quite pointless

Looking only at SOH change does not give any idea what is going on.

For what we know .. SOH drop could stop dopping at any point

Bad firmware is less lickley then a battery which has been wrongly initiated in the BMU with an overstated capacity.

As I mention above, what matter is the capacity in a particular voltage range ... what happen outside (which can have huge impact on real capacity) is irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:56 am 
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Trex wrote:
plugev wrote:
Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable


Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?

Now we have a transferable 5 year warranty, from memory, before anything else that may apply so you have time on your side IMO.

But only you can decide whether the lack of range is affecting you.

Now if you decide that you want to do something about your drive battery then we can talk about that later but I am pretty sure you will need to get your BMU (Battery Management Unit ) recalibrated to show the true capacity or SOH. Just look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about.

plugev wrote:

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?


Ok to me those amounts sound excessive but my dealer is in a "town" in NSW compared to a city like Brisbane where they seem to know how to charge more for even a basic service like a schooner of beer. ;)

Now I have just had a 5 year service done on my oldest PHEV (bought new) about 2 weeks ago so I will have a look around and see if I can see the price I paid for the 3 year service a couple of years ago.

Regards Trex.


Thanks Trex,

It doesn't affect my weekday commute which is only 14kms a day. But on the weekend and occasional longer weekday trip, I can't quite reach the destinations I could before without using the ICE. My warranty is until Dec 2020 so I do have time on my side, it is disappointing though to have such poor range when the car hasn't done much milage.

Using some petrol is probably no big deal since the car needs to use some regularly anyway, but I think it affects me because the car drives much better in EV only mode. The ICE is comparatively quite noisy and harsh.

Perhaps significant degradation is inevitable whether the battery gets replaced or not in these cars, as the battery is small and gets cycled so regularly and completely. I guess the problem is the way Mitsubishi sold the product claiming it will make 52kms on EV mode, when in reality after a couple years of use the car can only do 30km or less with ordinary use.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Dee Why
plugev wrote:
Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable?

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?

Thanks


Those quotes are certainly a bit steep, as you already worked out yourself. I had that service (and the 4 year one) done for $470.00 at a dealership 100km away because the local guys didn't want my business , they also quoted about $900.00 and when I pointed out that it is not much more than an oil change, they referred to the Mitsu schedule that allows something like 3.5 hours... at $186.00 per hour... we certainly are getting a bit greedy.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:18 pm
Posts: 4063
Location: Netherlands
plugev wrote:
Trex wrote:
plugev wrote:
Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable


Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?

Now we have a transferable 5 year warranty, from memory, before anything else that may apply so you have time on your side IMO.

But only you can decide whether the lack of range is affecting you.

Now if you decide that you want to do something about your drive battery then we can talk about that later but I am pretty sure you will need to get your BMU (Battery Management Unit ) recalibrated to show the true capacity or SOH. Just look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about.

plugev wrote:

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?


Ok to me those amounts sound excessive but my dealer is in a "town" in NSW compared to a city like Brisbane where they seem to know how to charge more for even a basic service like a schooner of beer. ;)

Now I have just had a 5 year service done on my oldest PHEV (bought new) about 2 weeks ago so I will have a look around and see if I can see the price I paid for the 3 year service a couple of years ago.

Regards Trex.


Thanks Trex,

It doesn't affect my weekday commute which is only 14kms a day. But on the weekend and occasional longer weekday trip, I can't quite reach the destinations I could before without using the ICE. My warranty is until Dec 2020 so I do have time on my side, it is disappointing though to have such poor range when the car hasn't done much milage.

Using some petrol is probably no big deal since the car needs to use some regularly anyway, but I think it affects me because the car drives much better in EV only mode. The ICE is comparatively quite noisy and harsh.

Perhaps significant degradation is inevitable whether the battery gets replaced or not in these cars, as the battery is small and gets cycled so regularly and completely. I guess the problem is the way Mitsubishi sold the product claiming it will make 52kms on EV mode, when in reality after a couple years of use the car can only do 30km or less with ordinary use.
It is not cycled completely. When it indicates "empty" it still has about 30% left. It will never go below 25% charge. Similarly, it will never charge to full capacity.

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:18 pm 
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jaapv wrote:
It will never go below 25% charge. Similarly, it will never charge to full capacity.
I have seen 18% during normal operation. I could agree with 'very seldom' ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:45 am 
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OK Very seldom. How did you manage to get that low?

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:06 am 
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jaapv wrote:
OK Very seldom. How did you manage to get that low?
Quite easy. Hook up a 1500 kg caravan, travel the A75 in the South of France north bound, from Beziers towards Milau and set your cruise control to 90-ish km/h. Gaining about 1000 meters at motorway speed will cause SoC to drop quickly, especially while in parallel mode. At 20% SoC the car will switch from paralel mode to series mode, but even in series mode, the ICE will not be able to maintain (let alone increase) SoC. So, SoC will continue to drop until you really experience "reduced propulsion" mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:00 am 
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jaapv wrote:
OK Very seldom. How did you manage to get that low?


This weekend I manage to see my lowest SOC while driving.

I had lot of city driving which allow to go down to 25% SOC

And then, since it was a bit cold, once I enter on a fast road, it took sometime before create enough power from the ICE .. so .. lowest value recorder by the WatchDog was 22.0% or 7.4Ah or 280v (3.5v per cell)

I think Anko did mention multiple times .. the buffer on the bottom, it is also needed for give time to the ICE to properly getting ready to charge the battery and give a smooth transition to the driver without any situation with limited power

Still it is a bit odd to have multiple "lowest" SOC level .. 30% (if car is drive faster then 60km/h) .. 25% for slow driving (which does not implies that driver can speed up at any time) .. and there is another level which might cause limited power ... if it would be me .. I would have gone for 27.5% for both high and low speed .. so with a more consistent EV range prediction. But I'm not Japanese enough :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:53 pm 
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jaapv wrote:
OK Very seldom. How did you manage to get that low?

I went up this climb in Charge mode. Started with 14/16 bars on the gauge. Finished with 8/16 bars on the gauge. The climb consumed ~3.3 kWh (it's about 0.55-0.6 kWh per bar) in about 8-9 minutes, which is approximately a steady state power drain of 23 kW or around 2C. In SoC terms, I think this was about 25% or so.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/34.9394 ... e0!5m1!1e4

If I had started with the standard 30% SoC, I would have hit 0 bars (25%) VERY quickly. And would probably have dropped to 15% about half way up, at which point, the car would have gone into limp mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation and replacement.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:43 am 
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STS134 wrote:
jaapv wrote:
I went up this climb in Charge mode. Started with 14/16 bars on the gauge. Finished with 8/16 bars on the gauge. The climb consumed ~3.3 kWh (it's about 0.55-0.6 kWh per bar) in about 8-9 minutes, which is approximately a steady state power drain of 23 kW or around 2C. In SoC terms, I think this was about 25% or so.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/34.9394 ... e0!5m1!1e4

If I had started with the standard 30% SoC, I would have hit 0 bars (25%) VERY quickly. And would probably have dropped to 15% about half way up, at which point, the car would have gone into limp mode.

Not perse. As this was an Interstate, you were probably in Parallel mode most of the time (if not all the time). If so, the car would have reverted to Series hybrid mode as soon as you hit 20% SoC, allowing for more RPM (and thus more ICE power).

When towing a caravan, I often see SoC dropping to 20% in parallel mode and then climbing back up to 22% in Series mode. And so on. This is sort of a secondary hysteresis cycle. Of course, while towing speed is relatively low (60-ish MPH) and so is RPM in parallel mode. Therefor the difference in max power output of the ICE in Series mode versus Parallel mode is rather large. If you were going faster during your climb, the difference may in max power output may have been smaller. But still, it might have kept you out of limp mode.


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