Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
elm70 wrote:
Trex wrote:

Yea I still think it is amazing what hybrids can do and I have owned 4 of them. I had a BMW 5 series that could get 30 mpg imperial and I thought that was fantastic. It was smaller (less drag), less weight and a 2wd as compared to the PHEV but the PHEV for me comfortable beats it and, like you, that is not counting the grid charge.


My previous BMW 320d was doing over 50mpg at 130km/h speed

If you care of fuel economy a diesel and a sedan offer superior economy

Since we opted for a SUV ... I guess fuel economy is a secondary factor.


Ok. Over the lifetime of the PHEV, counting the grid charge, I would comfortable beat 50 mpg even if could travel at 130 kph for the approx 10% of the time I use the petrol motor on the PHEV. So to me fuel economy is not a secondary factor.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
elm70 wrote:


A bigger battery will help not only on longer EV range, but as well on be able to provide more power (now it is limited to 70kw for the latest PHEV, old one has 60kw) ... as well, it will be less under stress and should be able to keep the SOH better then current PHEV which has a problem in this area


Well the acceleration in EV mode for us (my family) is quite acceptable for what we use it for. Unless I was drag racing at the traffic lights I think it is good.

I think it is still too in early days to say "current PHEV which has a problem in this area". I have seen graphs of Tesla degradation where some people had quite bad deterioration in their batteries. Is that what we are seeing here with the PHEV? I do not know. But I do know we have another thread to discuss this.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 167
Location: Saratoga, CA
Trex wrote:
Ok, finally had a chance to read that discussion on priuschat. Yep, never gone up the Grapevine on I-5 (6% grade for 5 miles straight) at 80+ mph in a standard Prius let alone a Prius C which is what the discussion was about . Now from memory the Prius C had a smaller petrol motor and drive battery. Mine was the standard Gen 3 Prius.

Now could the standard Prius go up the Grapevine at the speed limit? Not sure.


I'd imagine that it has a lot to do with how much cargo it's carrying. It might do okay with just one person in the car, but throw in a family of 4 and some suitcases in the trunk for a week at Disney and it'll probably struggle. In fairness though, A LOT of cars struggle to get up that slope...what makes cars like the Prius particularly bad though is that they have TWO max power levels: the boosted max, which is available when you initially start to climb, and then a much lower "battery dead" max that is much lower then the boosted max. And the batteries just aren't sized for a climb that steep and that long, so they quickly get exhausted and the car goes into "turtle mode". So if they size the system such that the boosted max gives it the power of a typical economy car, it quickly becomes a sitting duck in fast-moving traffic up slopes like the Grapevine. Personally, I'd give the Prius the same ICE power-to-weight ratio of a Corolla or similar car, with the boosted max being a bonus, so that it can at least keep up with economy cars when the batteries drain.

My Corolla could do 75-80 mph, but only at around 4.5-5.5k RPM and at WOT, when weighed down with that much stuff. My dad had a Nissan Pathfinder, which I drove up that slope, also with the entire family and luggage in the back, and I had the thing in 3rd gear (5 speed manual transmission) at around 5k RPM, and at WOT, all the way up, and it barely did 70-75. But then there's my friend's Cayenne S E-Hybrid, which can go up the Grapevine at 90 mph (a speed I've never managed to hit in any of these other cars, even when not loaded down) at 2k RPM without even breaking a sweat, without motor boost, on its 333 PS ICE alone. So yeah, there ARE advantages to oversizing the ICE and simply accepting being in less efficient regions of the consumption map most of the time. And there are disadvantages to it too: the thing is rated at just 19 mpg city/24 mpg highway/22 mpg combined. On the other hand, you don't want an engine so weak that it becomes a sitting duck in fast-moving traffic up a steep slope, nor do you want to severely overwork your engine, as that's detrimental to its lifespan. The only time I ever saw a full quart of oil disappear from my Corolla in about 750 miles involved a trip up the Grapevine, at WOT the entire way up. This was also the same trip where I had the engine at WOT many times on I-5, taking advantage of nearly every passing opportunity I saw in the flat areas, and it shows what operation at very high power levels and high RPMs does to your engine's ability to keep oil in the oil pan (not to mention, think about what it likely does to your piston rings!).


Last edited by STS134 on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 849
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
STS134 wrote:
Yes but I've found that once it goes into parallel mode, it sometimes stays in parallel mode all the way down to around 80kph (50mph).While you'd think it would switch to series mode and rev up the engine because it's climbing, this is not always the case. Sometimes, it simply prefers to stay in parallel mode and consume battery to make up for the power that the ICE can't produce at that RPM.


Ok this statement, to me, is a little hard to understand. But I will try to explain how parallel mode works.

From what I have seen on my PHEV and elsewhere including that video I posted previously is the petrol motor stays in Parallel mode if it (and the drive battery) can provide the power requested of them and if not the petrol motor will go back into Series mode if you are under approx 120 kph. Over approx 120 kph the petrol motor can provide more power in Parallel mode so will switch to it (or stay in if over 120 kph) as seen in that video.

Hope that makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Saratoga, CA
Trex wrote:
Ok this statement, to me, is a little hard to understand. But I will try to explain how parallel mode works.

From what I have seen on my PHEV and elsewhere including that video I posted previously is the petrol motor stays in Parallel mode if it (and the drive battery) can provide the power requested of them and if not the petrol motor will go back into Series mode if you are under approx 120 kph. Over approx 120 kph the petrol motor can provide more power in Parallel mode so will switch to it (or stay in if over 120 kph) as seen in that video.

Hope that makes sense.


ICE can provide enough power AND speed < 120 kph might be some of the initial conditions that cause parallel mode to come on (the other possible initial condition being speed over 125 kph), but once already there, it will sometimes stay there down to around 70-80 kph, even when the ICE is incapable of providing the power level requested. I'll try to get a shot of the instrument panel in this condition but I've had plenty of times when I was at around 70-80 kph with parallel mode engaged and the battery boosting.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 849
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
STS134 wrote:
Trex wrote:
Ok this statement, to me, is a little hard to understand. But I will try to explain how parallel mode works.

From what I have seen on my PHEV and elsewhere including that video I posted previously is the petrol motor stays in Parallel mode if it (and the drive battery) can provide the power requested of them and if not the petrol motor will go back into Series mode if you are under approx 120 kph. Over approx 120 kph the petrol motor can provide more power in Parallel mode so will switch to it (or stay in if over 120 kph) as seen in that video.

Hope that makes sense.


ICE can provide enough power AND speed < 120 kph might be some of the initial conditions that cause parallel mode to come on (the other possible initial condition being speed over 125 kph), but once already there, it will sometimes stay there down to around 70-80 kph, even when the ICE is incapable of providing the power level requested. I'll try to get a shot of the instrument panel in this condition but I've had plenty of times when I was at around 70-80 kph with parallel mode engaged and the battery boosting.


It is NOT just the power of the ICE. It is the ICE and the drive battery that combine to try and stay in parallel mode for power level requested. Remember it is a hybrid. :)

I will write it again hopefully clearer:

The ICE stays in Parallel mode if it (the ICE) and the drive battery COMBINED can provide the power requested of them and if not the ICE will go back into Series mode if you are under approx 120 kph. Over approx 120 kph the ICE can provide more power in Parallel mode so will switch to it (or stay in if over approx 120 kph) as seen in that video.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
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Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
elm70 wrote:

About series mode to be inefficient ... well ... it is in our current PHEV .. on a proper REX system I bet it can be quite efficient, if the small engine is tuned to deliver power at a given power level which is the ideal working load for this ICE


Ok I forgot to reply to this.

Now on Hybrid Electric Vehicles that are going used as a HEV ie using the petrol motor fairly regularly they go to the trouble of putting in a Parallel mode. Toyota's HSD come to mind as well Chevy Volt and our PHEV etc. Now they do not go to the added complexity of putting in clutches and such for no reason. It is to make the HEV more efficient than Series mode I would think. It virtually gives you a 2 speed gearbox in our case IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Saratoga, CA
Trex wrote:
ICE can provide enough power AND speed < 120 kph might be some of the initial conditions that cause parallel mode to come on (the other possible initial condition being speed over 125 kph), but once already there, it will sometimes stay there down to around 70-80 kph, even when the ICE is incapable of providing the power level requested. I'll try to get a shot of the instrument panel in this condition but I've had plenty of times when I was at around 70-80 kph with parallel mode engaged and the battery boosting.

It is NOT just the power of the ICE. It is the ICE and the drive battery that combine to try and stay in parallel mode for power level requested. Remember it is a hybrid. :)
...
I will write it again hopefully clearer:

The ICE stays in Parallel mode if it (the ICE) and the drive battery COMBINED can provide the power requested of them and if not the ICE will go back into Series mode if you are under approx 120 kph. Over approx 120 kph the ICE can provide more power in Parallel mode so will switch to it (or stay in if over approx 120 kph) as seen in that video.


Okay, THAT is consistent with what I am seeing:

Attachment:
Boost.jpg


This is a very dumb design IMO. The problem is, the system thinks the batteries are capable of supplying up to about 60 kW of power, and they are. It just isn't very good for their lifespan to do this so often, and instead of using the ICE whenever possible, it decides to kill the batteries. Now if my battery SoH goes below about 26 Ah before 10 years or 100000 miles are up, I won't mind so much. But after I get my free replacement, I want this thing reprogrammed.


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:40 am 
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 7:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Do we (in the USA) get a free batteries replacement if it goes under 26Ah before 10year/100000miles? Probably only if we start posting mad videos in YouTube and get MMNA attention just like a transplant does in the south hemisphere...I am just considering this first battery pack stolen: paid by federal tax credit/California rebate/SoCal Edison/HOV sticker/gas saved.

Talking about the HOV, the old red sticker will expire in a couple of years. The new purple one will have one extra year. Most HOV heavy users will be getting a new car by then...Are you?

Even if not, within 10 years, the batteries technology would advance so much, that no one knows what battery we could get to transplant in our PHEV. By that time, hackers may have already decoded the firmware and we should be able to pay them to reprogram the car just like VW-TDI.

I just hope Mitsubishi sells more Outlander PHEV in the USA so I can get cheap battery packs in junk yard in the future. Last time I checked, those GM-Volt folks are getting battery pack for less than $3k! (Don’t ask me the SOH, please)

Meanwhile, we just enjoy our PHEV. Next time I go to SF Bay Area, let us have some beer to cheer for New Year!

Tai.

_________________
Outlander PHEV SEL pearl white - MY2018


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 Post subject: Re: So why do we have Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Saratoga, CA
Tai626 wrote:
Do we (in the USA) get a free batteries replacement if it goes under 26Ah before 10year/100000miles? Probably only if we start posting mad videos in YouTube and get MMNA attention just like a transplant does in the south hemisphere...I am just considering this first battery pack stolen: paid by federal tax credit/California rebate/SoCal Edison/HOV sticker/gas saved.

Talking about the HOV, the old red sticker will expire in a couple of years. The new purple one will have one extra year. Most HOV heavy users will be getting a new car by then...Are you?


Personally, I don't think the Legislature is going to extend the Clean Air Decal program when all decals issued before January 1, 2022 are already expired and all decals issued after this date expire on September 30, 2025. The HOV lanes are already so clogged up with Teslas and Volts so as to make the stickers of limited usefulness at times, and by this time, EVs, PHEVs, and FCVs will no longer be rare enough to justify giving them special perks.


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