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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Darkflow wrote:
Further on this, reports are that the BMU shows 40 Ah when the capacity measurement procedure is carried out on the new batteries that are being installed in some Australian cars.

It seems as though the 38 Ah is some sort of default setting in the BMU.


Yes IMHO this "out of whack" BMU has been causing problems for a while. I hope Mitsi sort it out with a BMU update over here and elsewhere one day.

But a 40 Ah rated battery is what Mitsubishi has been telling us for years is in the PHEV and we have apps using 38 Ah as the "baseline". Not good IMHO because we are speaking different amounts of degradation or SOH in % terms compared to Mitsubishi. :roll:

At least we now know that the apps are wrong and can work around their faults IMO. Or they can fix the apps I suppose. :D Although the degradation or SOH in % terms will be showing worse than before but I can handle that. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:22 pm 
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zzcoopej wrote:
Trex wrote:
In EvBatMon from the beginning I specifically used the label "PMC" which I coined myself as "Percentage of Manufactured Capacity", and not SOH, as I did not believe I was calculating a true SOH value.!
And I think this number is what 95% of the people are interested in.

And I wonder: If PMC has gone down by 10%, can we not assume that SoH has gone down with roughly that same 10%?

Altogether, we know initial available capacity (38 Ah) and we have a notion of current available capacity. As we have no notion of current gross capacity, how is it going to help us if we know initial gross capacity?


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:41 pm 
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zzcoopej wrote:
Trex wrote:
Anko, so because you, and I think probably Jeremy and Daniel who make the apps, believe that 38 Ah is 100 % SOH and not what Mitsubishi state we should use ie 40 Ah, to me that sounds presumptuous of you three to start your own definition of how the SOH should be measured IMHO.


Trex, while I get what you are saying (and agree with the pedantic semantics), you really should not paint us all with the same brush. In EvBatMon from the beginning I specifically used the label "PMC" which I coined myself as "Percentage of Manufactured Capacity", and not SOH, as I did not believe I was calculating a true SOH value. I actually meant it to be a real-world rather than nominal value, ie "how much has the battery deteriorated since I've owned it", which is very lenient on Mitsubishi (best case).
The current Ah capacity is the real value, so feel free to use 40Ah and you have your SOH and eat it too. Sweet!


After thinking a little more about what Jeremy wrote here:

zzcoopej wrote:

...........you really should not paint us all with the same brush.


This to me is now starting to sound like a "cop out" or running away from his responsibility for helping create the problem IMO. He invents a label called PMC which stands for Percentage of Manufactured Capacity. Lets just look at that Percentage of Manufactured Capacity wording. To me it looks like he is writing about Mitsubishi's (or GS Yuasa's) Manufactured Capacity. Well Mitsubishi have been telling us for years that the drive battery rated Manufactured Capacity used in the PHEV is 40 Ah and NOT 38 AH that Jeremy used in his formula for working PMC out.

Then we have Daniel (PHEV Watchdog), or someone involved in its development, it seems to me copying (but I may be wrong) Jeremy's EVbatmon (from memory EVbatmon came out first) formula of using 38 Ah instead of what Mitsubishi have been telling us for years to use 40 Ah. So the problem gets even worse because that app can be acquired for free so I think probably more people get involved. :roll:

The worse part for me about this IMO whole sorry mess is some on this forum, from memory, have been blaming Mitsubishi for not using the full rated capacity in that formula or words to that effect when there are people here, that come to this forum, that could have set the record straight of how it all happened in the first place. :roll:


Last edited by Trex on Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:09 pm 
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anko wrote:
zzcoopej wrote:
Trex wrote:
In EvBatMon from the beginning I specifically used the label "PMC" which I coined myself as "Percentage of Manufactured Capacity", and not SOH, as I did not believe I was calculating a true SOH value.!
And I think this number is what 95% of the people are interested in.

And I wonder: If PMC has gone down by 10%, can we not assume that SoH has gone down with roughly that same 10%?

Altogether, we know initial available capacity (38 Ah) and we have a notion of current available capacity. As we have no notion of current gross capacity, how is it going to help us if we know initial gross capacity?


Hey anko you are "putting words in my mouth" that I did not say. :lol:

As for your "And I think this number is what 95% of the people are interested in" I think we would have to have a poll to know whether people want to know the "truth" according to Mitsubishi or use the "invented formula" being promoted by you and probably others.

Your "initial available capacity" can be approx 40 Ah, as Mitsubishi has stated, even after the car was delivered it would seem if we believe what was written here:
Darkflow wrote:
Further on this, reports are that the BMU shows 40 Ah when the capacity measurement procedure is carried out on the new batteries that are being installed in some Australian cars.


Like I said in a previous post in this thread by not using the rated 40 Ah as Mitsubishi has stated it is not good IMHO because we are speaking different amounts of degradation or SOH in % terms compared to Mitsubishi. :roll: ie when we talk to our dealers or such we are not on the same page or I could say we are comparing apples with oranges IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Trex wrote:
This to me is now starting to sound like a "cop out" or running away from his responsibility for helping create the problem IMO.
To me it seems you are the one creating the problem. IMHO, everybody but you seems happy with how SoH is calculated by either apps.


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:30 pm 
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Trex wrote:
Your "initial available capacity" can be approx 40 Ah, as Mitsubishi has stated, even after the car was delivered it would seem if we believe what was written here:
Darkflow wrote:
Further on this, reports are that the BMU shows 40 Ah when the capacity measurement procedure is carried out on the new batteries that are being installed in some Australian cars.
Please point me to a report from Mitsubishi for this. I would be very interested to read it.

Trex wrote:
Like I said in a previous post in this thread by not using the rated 40 Ah as Mitsubishi has stated it is not good IMHO because we are speaking different amounts of degradation or SOH in % terms compared to Mitsubishi. :roll:
Where have they stated this? When I first expressed my concerns with the Dutch distributor I presented them with this calculation: 34.5 Ah out of 40, means 14% loss. They came back with: no, it is 34.5 out of 37.8 Ah, which means 8.7% loss.

I was not happy with that answer, but it was their answer. On the other hand, under the right circumstances the car was able to achieve advertised range. And I was able to add 9 kWh to the battery when charging from empty. So, why focus on that 40 Ah number? Why complain (apart from the fact that I was nowhere near the lower number either)?

Suppose, I buy a car with an engine that is technically capable of producing 200 hp, but do via software restriction of turbo pressure, it has been tuned down to 180 hp. On day 2 I put it on a dyno and it produces 180 hp. Is the SoH of my engine now 80%? I don't think so. Even if other models using the same engine didn't have the restriction and had 200 HP available would not make a difference. SoH of my engine would still be 100%.


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:33 pm 
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Quote:
Please point me to a report from Mitsubishi for this. I would be very interested to read it.


You and me both. I'd be interested in reading any report from Mitsubishi about the battery degradation, but won't be holding my breath.

In the meantime though, I assume that you have access to the pooled phev watchdog data that your hard work has enabled to exist.
You'll see data points at 40 Ah representing Australian cars that have new batteries and have had the capacity measurement procedure carried out.


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:27 pm 
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Trex wrote:
Lets just look at that Percentage of Manufactured Capacity wording. To me it looks like he is writing about Mitsubishi's (or GS Yuasa's) Manufactured Capacity. Well Mitsubishi have been telling us for years that the drive battery rated Manufactured Capacity used in the PHEV is 40 Ah and NOT 38 AH that Jeremy used in his formula for working PMC out.


No. Maybe we need to look back to the Mitsu claim which is "There will be some natural degradation of the battery over the life of the vehicle which could lead to a small reduction in the pure EV range. This is expected to be no more than 20%.

So the key points here are -
1. Life of vehicle, not battery. Life starts when the battery is IN the vehicle, not in a brochure or BMU theoretical maximum setting.
2. Reduction is in pure EV range, not Ah, SOH etc.
3. drop of up to 20% in EV range is acceptable after 10 years
4. the 20% is the range when YOU get your PHEV new, vs the range YOU get today.

Unfortunately "pure EV range" opens up a can of worms - what terrain, tyre pressure, roofbars, driving habits, luggage etc? That is why we started using Ah, PMC and SOH as it removes most of those variables.

_________________

Cheers, J.
http://www.EvPositive.com
2010 iMiEV, 2015 Outlander PHEV
PHEV App EvBatMon -
Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.EvPositive.EvBatMon
iOS https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/evbatmon-for-mitsubishi-outlander/id1143901805


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:59 pm 
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I have some questions for you anko.

Could you please tell me, were you involved in any way with that 38 Ah being used in the formula of either of those 2 apps?

And if the answer is yes which one or was it both?


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 Post subject: Re: Evbatmon and Phev watchdog is showing the wrong SOH amou
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Darkflow wrote:
I'd be interested in reading any report from Mitsubishi about the battery degradation, but won't be holding my breath.


I posted this in this thread I started viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3487&start=20 Edit put in wrong link previously
Trex wrote:
But I now have this information:

"There are two main types of degradation – Cyclic Degradation (degradation due to discharge/charge) and Calendar Degradation (degradation due to time). Factors that
accelerate cyclic degradation are high discharge/charge rates, high energy demands at high/low battery state of charge, and complete battery discharge situations. Factors that
accelerate calendar degradation are amount of time in service, high ambient temperatures in storage (when the vehicle is not in use) and high battery state of charge when in
storage."

IMO this helps us solve this one.

Regards Trex.


This is straight from the "horse's mouth" and sent to me personally, though not one person asked me at the time where I got it or I am not sure anyone even noticed it at the time.


Last edited by Trex on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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