Considering a PHEV

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Marps1484

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Joined
Sep 9, 2017
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3
Hi, first time on a forum, be gentle!
Considering a PHEV to replace my current Audi Q7. I do about 40-80 miles a day on dual Carriageway, minor roads and a fair bit of town driving. Thinking of a 4h?
Is it going to be a good idea, I'm attracted by the technology but want to feel it's going to benefit me.
Thanks in advance for any advice
Marps
 
Hi Marps,

Going by your use of "dual carriageway" I'm guessing that you're in the UK.

So the answer will depend on the speed you routinely drive.

There have been a number of posts, where people complain that they drive at high speeds on the motorway, and as a result get poorer fuel economy.

Also depends on how your daily driving is structured.

If you have an opportunity to recharge during the day, you could get fifty of those eighty miles without burning any petrol, but if you're on the road all day, then about 55 of those miles will be with the engine running.

Probably if you can give a bit more info about your driving, people would be able to give you a better answer.

I'm at the opposite end of the scale.

My daily commute is about 12km, and I recharge twice per week. I have to make occasional "country drives" just to use up petrol. (The car will force you to use petrol if you haven't run the engine "enough") you probably won't ever see that mode.

Andy
 
It will run cheaper than Q7 at least. Your travel is 40 -80 miles. So there is large variation hence difficult to say. I do 29 miles daily with 20miles on motorway. I manage 93 % electric driving. If you charge at work then no problem. Smile at the way
 
Thanks for the info. I tend to drive from house to house for appointments, mostly country lanes as low speed or urban area. Probably the most of dual carriageways is 10 miles. No wehere to charge during the day but would start the day with a full charge from home. Have solar panels at home too.
 
Just press save button on dual carraigeway , mostly likely due low speed my guess is 28 miles in summer and 24 miles in winter of EV driving rest petrol . So definitely cheaper than Q7.
 
Interesting to see people that own a Q7 thinking to drive "economically" or green ... since Q7 is not economical nor green at all.

The outlander PHEV can drive "cheap" for "few" km but it also implies to drive like a grandpa ... only reward is that it is ultra smooth .. the absence of gears make the car very linear and comfortable in acceleration

For a budget of a Q7 ... I would consider a porsche cayenne PHEV .. it can still pretend to be green .. but if needed it has also 400HP of pure fun :geek:
 
Kesto said:
Just press save button on dual carraigeway , mostly likely due low speed my guess is 28 miles in summer and 24 miles in winter of EV driving rest petrol . So definitely cheaper than Q7.

I never press save ... I always press charge .. save it is quite useless in my book

Also .. is important to have B2 or B3 (B5 will be even more efficient, but can arm the battery) while running with charge on
 
elm70 said:
Interesting to see people that own a Q7 thinking to drive "economically" or green ... since Q7 is not economical nor green at all.
....

With a list price for the cheapest Q7 of more than £49,000, it is certainly not economical! I suspect that you would be getting a better built car than the PHEV, but you are paying a high premium that you will never recover. Mind you, if you are primarily interested in overall cost of ownership, then the PHEV probably is not the car for you either - a SEAT Ateca at a similar trim and equipment level but with a petrol engine will cost at least £10,000 less than the PHEV and few owners will recoup that in the likely lifetime of the car.
 
I thought marps wanted to embrace new technology. There will be so many options below price of PHEV. This is the downside of all PHEV and EVs
 
Kesto said:
I thought marps wanted to embrace new technology. There will be so many options below price of PHEV. This is the downside of all PHEV and EVs

What are "marps"? Or is this a typo?

OK - sorry! Have now seen the name of the OP! My bad!
 
maby said:
With a list price for the cheapest Q7 of more than £49,000, it is certainly not economical! I suspect that you would be getting a better built car than the PHEV, but you are paying a high premium that you will never recover. Mind you, if you are primarily interested in overall cost of ownership, then the PHEV probably is not the car for you either - a SEAT Ateca at a similar trim and equipment level but with a petrol engine will cost at least £10,000 less than the PHEV and few owners will recoup that in the likely lifetime of the car.

Got a bit lost ...

PHEV .. you mean our PHEV, the outlander .. or a generic PHEV (which are not many, especially SUV PHEV) ?

Anyhow ... I trade in a 3y old Dacia Duster for a 3 year old PHEV outlander ... and economically I will go break even in 5 to 7 years :mrgreen: ... anyhow ... we are speaking of the cheapest SUV in the market (as new price) the Duster .. so a 2nd hand Outlander PHEV is in my book a "cheap" "car"... or better ... a very cost effective way of transportation.

Anyhow ... I see better a Q7 owner jump over a Porsche PHEV (same producer group) .. then not "going" down for a Japanese PHEV SUV ...


EDIT : Actually Audi Q7 is also available as PHEV with 17.4kwh of battery and 34miles of range ... I did not know ... even better then Porsche cayenne PHEV :cool:
 
elm70 said:
...

Got a bit lost ...

PHEV .. you mean our PHEV, the outlander .. or a generic PHEV (which are not many, especially SUV PHEV) ?

...

I was specifically thinking of the Outlander PHEV although the comment is probably equally true of all large PHEVs on the market at the moment. The SEAT Ateca is a very nice soft-roader - similar size to the Outlander and at least as good a specification in most respects - and can be had for something in the region of £10,000 less than the Outlander PHEV. That buys a great deal of petrol - even if the running cost of the Outlander were zero, it would take something like 8 years of average use to make up that difference.
 
anko said:
elm70 said:
Also .. is important to have B2 or B3 (...) while running with charge on
Care to explain why?

As you already notice, setting B0 to B5 does change not only how much automatic slow down the car does when gas pedal is released , but as well it control how many kw of power are allowed to be sent to the batter when breaking

Based on the sound engine, and the modest efficiency when driving in B0 with charge pressed ... I'm quite convinced that B0 to B5 put the same kw charge limit to the battery from the running ICE in generator more (or combined mode .. generator + real time power demand for driving)

In order to maximize the efficiency is better to run the engine at the max load ... so better to charge as fast as possible the battery and then once charged run in EV mode

Running on B5 or B4 it may over stress the battery ... but definitely running in B0 with charge ON .. is a waste of fuel efficiency, especially driving at low speed.
 
From what I was told by Mitsubishi distributor in the Netherlands (and what matches my own findings), B level translates into a target deceleration. B5 would result in 0.11 G or 1 m/s2 deceleration. The BMU may prevent this as the max charge current is restricted more or less when the battery SOC is more than 50% (real).

I have a near real time monitor for fuel consumption, engine load and battery (dis)charge power. I have never seen a correlation between these values and the B setting. I will double check on the next occasion.

On the other hand, I have noticed that when coasting in B1 or higher (if you want to call that coasting) then engine starts to idle but still consumes fuel where it continues to charge the battery when in B0.
 
Coasting on a PHEV cannot be as effective as it would be on a pure ICE car. The rationale is to minimize the amount of energy wasted as heat by braking or compression braking.
On the PHEV modest braking will result in regeneration, limiting the amount of heat loss and recharging the battery.
As B1-B5 will do exactly the same as the judicious use of the brakes, and not involve the ICE, paddling to B0 will only reduce the hysteresis loss of power/regeneration - as long as one does not brake so abruptly as to involve the mechanical brakes-.
 
jaapv said:
...
As B1-B5 will do exactly the same as the judicious use of the brakes, and not involve the ICE, paddling to B0 will only reduce the hysteresis loss of power/regeneration - as long as one does not brake so abruptly as to involve the mechanical brakes-.

That was certainly my understanding - as opposed to elm70's suggestions above. I see no evidence that the B setting imposes any upper limit on the level of regeneration - it simply seems to set the level of regeneration that is applied if you take your foot away from the pedals. On B0 or B1, descending a steep hill, you can still obtain a high regeneration current if you depress the brake pedal by the right amount.
 
To my mind, unless one had the habit of coasting on a regular car (by depressing the clutch at speed) it does not make much sense to coast B0 on the PHEV.
Having said that, feathering the throttle, which is part of advanced driving, (i.e. reducing pressure on the accelerator after reaching cruising speed to get the car to maintain speed with minimum throttle) does make a marginal improvement in fuel economy with conventional cars, and I get the impression it does slightly more so for electricity consumption on the PHEV - but Anko could measure the effect.
 
jaapv said:
Coasting on a PHEV cannot be as effective as it would be on a pure ICE car. The rationale is to minimize the amount of energy wasted as heat by braking or compression braking.
Just to make sure, we were talking about fuel efficiency when running in Charge mode.

When lifting the go-pedal in B0, the ICE keeps running and keeps charging the battery. Load will be far less than optimal, but still there is some useful output.
When lifting the go-pedal in B1+, the ICE keeps running but stops charging the battery. It uses just enough fuel to keep itself running. It will not slow down the car, but there is no useful output either. Fuel efficiency is 0% at these times.
 
I was indeed talking in a general sense about coasting in B0. In charge mode, other factors, like running the engine at optimum efficiency get into play.
Am I correct in saying that the effect of B0 is small when running electrically, and maybe even negative when the ICE is charging?
 
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