Honda CR-V Hybrid

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user 816

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Honda will be showing a hybrid version of its new CR-V at the Frankfurt motor show later in September.

Not much detail yet but it sounds mechanically similar to the Outlander but not plug-in so with a smaller battery (they could surprise us though)

2.0L Atkinson petrol engine (I know PHEV is not Atkinson) 2 motors providing primary drive so presumably 4WD, no gearbox, engine can clutch in at a suitable speed extra power going into battery, multiple auto modes, EV, parallel, series, about 200bhp total maximum output..

sound familiar?

Looking forward to see it, had a few Honda vehicles and they are good at packaging car components to make space so I am expecting them to get the bits in with minimal impact on practicality. But we will see..
 
Not impressed by Honda ... at least based on the Outlander PHEV experience.

Without charging our PHEV the fuel economy is quite poor .. so the design I appreciate for the simplicity (that I read increased reliability and better end price, even if our PHEV is quite expensive) ... but the absence of gearbox cause some less fuel efficiency in the PHEV

Also ... efficiency is even less if recharging capability are limited ... my fuel economy running with B0 and low speed (below 60km/h) without access to J1772 charge has been a disaster 9.5L/100km ... while at little bit higher speed (80km/h) with B3 I did manage as low as 7.5 .. a normal ICE car , even suv .. driven gently at no more 60km/h does no more then 6 or 7 L/100km

So .. if Honda copy this design, as gearless and with small battery (but maybe small in kwh, but capable of fast charge and discharge .. ) .. I would expect a very poor fuel efficiency

Anyhow ... personally I don't like pure Hybrid cars .. ideal for me is PHEV with a battery as big as possible ... our Outlander PHEV with a 20kwh battery capable to power 120kw for both the engine (so never ICE kick in for power request) .. it sound a ideal solution also keeping the simple gearless design

In this aspect ... the best car is the Ampera / Volt ... the bigger battery on PHEV ..but no AWD / 4x4 ...
 
Designs like the Prius, Lexus and, apparently, this Honda, are targeting a different user base to the PHEV. They are probably more appropriate than the PHEV to people like me who do relatively long distances, away from home with no (economic) option for charging. Our PHEV has done over 36,000 miles, almost all on petrol - we have dragged a large and heavy battery round with us which has contributed little to the operation of the vehicle. For us, a pure hybrid with a small battery functioning as an electric turbo to an engine tuned for fuel economy would probably be more fuel efficient than the PHEV has been.
 
These links will explain it quite well.

The last link is a video about the system, which is already on sale in some markets.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-new-honda-hybrid-drivetrain-under-development

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/explaining-the-honda-accords-shrewdly-designed-new-hybrid-system-tech-dept

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/videos/2017-honda-accord-hybrid-three-motors-no-transmission-cnet-on-cars-episode-95/
 
elm70 said:
Not impressed by Honda ... at least based on the Outlander PHEV experience.

Without charging our PHEV the fuel economy is quite poor .. so the design I appreciate for the simplicity (that I read increased reliability and better end price, even if our PHEV is quite expensive) ... but the absence of gearbox cause some less fuel efficiency in the PHEV

Also ... efficiency is even less if recharging capability are limited ... my fuel economy running with B0 and low speed (below 60km/h) without access to J1772 charge has been a disaster 9.5L/100km ... while at little bit higher speed (80km/h) with B3 I did manage as low as 7.5 .. a normal ICE car , even suv .. driven gently at no more 60km/h does no more then 6 or 7 L/100km

So .. if Honda copy this design, as gearless and with small battery (but maybe small in kwh, but capable of fast charge and discharge .. ) .. I would expect a very poor fuel efficiency

Anyhow ... personally I don't like pure Hybrid cars .. ideal for me is PHEV with a battery as big as possible ... our Outlander PHEV with a 20kwh battery capable to power 120kw for both the engine (so never ICE kick in for power request) .. it sound a ideal solution also keeping the simple gearless design

In this aspect ... the best car is the Ampera / Volt ... the bigger battery on PHEV ..but no AWD / 4x4 ...
I find your fuel economy figures astounding. I have never been able to push the car that low...
 
maby said:
Designs like the Prius, Lexus and, apparently, this Honda, are targeting a different user base to the PHEV. They are probably more appropriate than the PHEV to people like me who do relatively long distances, away from home with no (economic) option for charging. Our PHEV has done over 36,000 miles, almost all on petrol - we have dragged a large and heavy battery round with us which has contributed little to the operation of the vehicle. For us, a pure hybrid with a small battery functioning as an electric turbo to an engine tuned for fuel economy would probably be more fuel efficient than the PHEV has been.

Exactly, with a smaller battery used as a reservoir for energy recovery and a 'turbo' when peak power is needed is quite viable. Kia aimed for this with the Niro and partly achieved it, most journals (apart from Autocar!) have got quite respectable MPG for a Qashqai sized petrol powered vehicle and the CO2 (tax) is better than the Qashqai with a diesel and the same power.

I still think its going wrong in them (Honda, Mitsubishi etc) putting big 2.0L lumps in even if tuned for economy. I think BMW got it right with a small (1.5L 3 cylinder) compact highly tuned engine and despite stunning performance can turn in 40mpg according to Car magazines long term average.
 
maby said:
Designs like the Prius, Lexus and, apparently, this Honda, are targeting a different user base to the PHEV. They are probably more appropriate than the PHEV to people like me who do relatively long distances, away from home with no (economic) option for charging. Our PHEV has done over 36,000 miles, almost all on petrol - we have dragged a large and heavy battery round with us which has contributed little to the operation of the vehicle. For us, a pure hybrid with a small battery functioning as an electric turbo to an engine tuned for fuel economy would probably be more fuel efficient than the PHEV has been.

I think you missed the point that the Honda is gear less.

I did find that our PHEV in serial mode has very poor fuel efficiency, especially if low recharge from ICE to battery is engaged by using B0

A gearless hybrid with small battery, will not have option to charge at high rate, so the ICE for charge the battery will be not efficient

Prius and other hybrids have a normal ICE with gears .. that make more sense

Gearless make sense only with big battery in my opinion, or at least with a battery that allow to be charged continuously above 30kw .. I don't believe a small 1kwh battery can be charge at such rate .. as well even if battery technology could allow it .. the ICE will start and stop in 2 minutes for fully charge the little battery .. that may make little sens
 
jaapv said:
I find your fuel economy figures astounding. I have never been able to push the car that low...

:?:

What is your fuel economy without possibility to charge the PHEV ?

I had 2 weeks of country side vacations and no charge at all ... so ... I did check fuel economy starting with low or no EV km and back in same situation ... has been 9.5L / 100km .. at first .. when driving slow (never over 60km/h) in mountain or sort of mountain area ... but using B0 (I like to drive in B0 ) .... and later on ... I changed to B3 but also had mix of villages (up to 60kmm/h) and outside (80km/h) .. which allowed me to make 7.5L / 100km

As note .. car loaded with 3 people .. and 60kg of bicycles on the rear hook .. and all time AC on
 
elm70 said:
...
I think you missed the point that the Honda is gear less.

I did find that our PHEV in serial mode has very poor fuel efficiency, especially if low recharge from ICE to battery is engaged by using B0

A gearless hybrid with small battery, will not have option to charge at high rate, so the ICE for charge the battery will be not efficient

Prius and other hybrids have a normal ICE with gears .. that make more sense
...

The Toyota hybrids have no gearbox - I can't speak for the other hybrid designs. Toyotas rely on this three port differential which couples the engine, electric motor and wheels to control the transfer ratio to the wheels. If the motor is locked, then the engine is directly coupled to the wheels with a fixed gear ratio determined by the differential. This is set up to be roughly equivalent to fourth gear on a conventional car and means that a Prius effectively runs as a conventional petrol engined car at cruising speeds. The transfer ratio between the engine and the wheels is varied by adjusting the output of the electric motor (including running it as a generator). The Prius really does implement CVT as far as the petrol engine is concerned since there are two independent power sources going into the differential - there is an infinite number of combinations of engine speed and electric motor speed that will result in the same road speed.
 
maby said:
The Toyota hybrids have no gearbox - I can't speak for the other hybrid designs. Toyotas rely on this three port differential which couples the engine, electric motor and wheels to control the transfer ratio to the wheels. If the motor is locked, then the engine is directly coupled to the wheels with a fixed gear ratio determined by the differential. This is set up to be roughly equivalent to fourth gear on a conventional car and means that a Prius effectively runs as a conventional petrol engined car at cruising speeds. The transfer ratio between the engine and the wheels is varied by adjusting the output of the electric motor (including running it as a generator). The Prius really does implement CVT as far as the petrol engine is concerned since there are two independent power sources going into the differential - there is an infinite number of combinations of engine speed and electric motor speed that will result in the same road speed.

Prius e-cvt .... is too complicated for my taste (I don't want to spend more then 5 minutes on it) .. but for what I get ... it is far from the gearless system in the Outlander PHEV

If Honda use a gearless system like the prius .. then it quite different then the outlander PHEV ... I bet ... Honda did not copy or follow the very simple transmission from our Outlander .. which it make sense only with a big battery and the Plug-In option.
 
elm70 said:
...

Prius e-cvt .... is too complicated for my taste (I don't want to spend more then 5 minutes on it) .. but for what I get ... it is far from the gearless system in the Outlander PHEV

If Honda use a gearless system like the prius .. then it quite different then the outlander PHEV ... I bet ... Honda did not copy or follow the very simple transmission from our Outlander .. which it make sense only with a big battery and the Plug-In option.

As I said above, they target different market segments. The PHEV targets users whose pattern of usage is daily short journeys with occasional long trips, the Toyota hybrids are more general purpose cars that use "mild hybrid" technology to improve the fuel economy of a fundamentally petrol engined car - they make no attempt at being an EV. The Toyota hybrid approach would probably be more appropriate to us, for example - about 12,000 miles per year, almost all long journeys with no possibility of charging. Unfortunately, the UK government does not provide any tax incentives to buy a "mild hybrid".
 
maby said:
As I said above, they target different market segments. The PHEV targets users whose pattern of usage is daily short journeys with occasional long trips, the Toyota hybrids are more general purpose cars that use "mild hybrid" technology to improve the fuel economy of a fundamentally petrol engined car - they make no attempt at being an EV. The Toyota hybrid approach would probably be more appropriate to us, for example - about 12,000 miles per year, almost all long journeys with no possibility of charging. Unfortunately, the UK government does not provide any tax incentives to buy a "mild hybrid".

People that do lot of miles per year, normally they drive on a Motorway ... and driving at constant speed (which is relative high), there is no magic possible with hybrid technology .. so whatever solution PHEV or Hybrid ... it end up adding some "waste" in a ICE car .. nothing can do better MPG on motorway then a good Diesel ICE (if people are against Diesel ... I'm sure there are lean Petrol ICE car too) ... personally optimize fuel consumption has been never my 1st focus on selecting a car.

For me Hybrid and PHEV have their advantage when used in the urban environment ... so for commuting inside a city

Having to carry extra weight on a PHEV for a bigger battery is not a big issue, since the energy "wasted" for accelerate a more heavy car, is then win back on more regeneration brake (only limit is a battery not capable to absorb this energy, so smaller battery have more problem to absorb higher regeneration power on braking ... personally I'm driving on B0 .. and wasting quite some regen power since I'm more afraid of damage the PHEV battery on fast re-charge then not win in energy efficiency)

So ... in my view traditional Hybrid are quite a "waste", very limited usage and little win ... while PHEV that allow to be 100% EV for 90% of usage, and 10% usage free from EV range limit .. is a big win ... our outlander PHEV in my book will be so much better with a 20kwh battery .. no more ice start on fast acceleration, less battery wear and more regen ... only limitation are the cost (not the weight) ... but with lithium battery price sinking all the time ... next PHEV with 20+ kwh ... will win over any standard hybrid car.

For extreme high mileage ... better then a good ICE car .. is only a excellent pure EV car (which at the moment does not exist .. even if the Tesla 100kwh are getting close to it)
 
I actually think it would be more competitive against existing compact SUV hybrids like the Rav4 Hybrid & Rogue/X-trail Hybrid. A certain car reviewer I talked to compared the Outlander PHEV powertrain with the Accord Plug-in Hybrid which also shares a 2.0L engine, a primary drive motor & a generator - the only real difference is the Outlander PHEV has the additional rear-mounted motor for AWD & a significantly bigger battery (12kWh vs 6.7kWh). Both systems prioritize EV running, and would switch to serial hybrid drive in low-speed driving & parallel hybrid mode for high speed driving by spline directly to the front-wheels & using excess power to charge the battery.

However whereas the Accord Plug-in Hybrid can get Prius-like 46MPG fuel economy despite being a large midsize sedan, the Outlander PHEV running in hybrid mode does no better than similarly sized gas-only compact SUVs (25MPG) & does worst than rivals like Rav4 Hybrid (34MPG) & Rogue Hybrid (32MPG). Yes the Outlander PHEV has to carry a significantly larger battery pack for real EV operation, but its inefficiency in running on petrol is quite clear. Mitsubishi's 4B11 2.0L maybe a decent workhorse motor in the regular Outlander & Lancer, but it does not match the efficiency of Toyota's 2AR-FXE on the Rav4 & Honda's K20 Earth Dreams both which operate on the Atkinson cycle, something that is beneficial for hybrids.

If the CR-V Hybrid gets a similar powertrain to the Accord Hybrid with a rear-mounted motor & the K20 Earth Dreams engine + i-MMD hybrid drivetrain, it could very easily top 36MPG if tuned properly, and a possible PHEV variant to come at a later date. Mitsubishi should really look towards either making the next Outlander PHEV with a bigger battery (18~20kWh?) & with a significantly more efficient powertrain (4B40? Atkinson cycle?)
 
elm70 said:
People that do lot of miles per year, normally they drive on a Motorway ... and driving at constant speed (which is relative high), there is no magic possible with hybrid technology ..
I do realise this is an old statement, that got just bumped, but still ....

At constant speed (say 100 km/h)thanks to the hybrid technology, the ICE in the PHEV does about 2/3 of the rotations, compared to what it would have done without the hybrid technology. It is running much more efficiently 2/3 of the time, and totally off 1/3 of the time. Pretty sure it would burn more fuel if it didn't do that. Isn't that magic? :mrgreen:
 
anko said:
elm70 said:
People that do lot of miles per year, normally they drive on a Motorway ... and driving at constant speed (which is relative high), there is no magic possible with hybrid technology ..
I do realise this is an old statement, that got just bumped, but still ....

At constant speed (say 100 km/h)thanks to the hybrid technology, the ICE in the PHEV does about 2/3 of the rotations, compared to what it would have done without the hybrid technology. It is running much more efficiently 2/3 of the time, and totally off 1/3 of the time. Pretty sure it would burn more fuel if it didn't do that. Isn't that magic? :mrgreen:

It also fails to understand the point of a "mild hybrid" like the Prius and the various Lexus models - a low capacity battery pack coupled to a relatively low output electric motor can provide the pseudo-turbo effect that is necessary to get decent performance out of a car with an engine tuned for fuel economy. The Atkinson cycle engine used in the Toyota drive train (and, apparently, the Honda offerings) has a very narrow power curve - it would not be able to give decent acceleration and a decent top speed without the electric turbo effect.
 
apparently proper release of data of what we will get will be released in October, ready for sale in January 2019 of the Hybrid model.

But looking at info on the Japan site where its already launched shows some promising data.
I just hope we get both the 4WD as well as 2WD versions, so they did make a rear motor version too.

Fuel consumption figures on WLTC (the economy element of new WLTP test) indicated fuel consumption of between 45 and 52 mpg.

WLTC CO2 for 2WD 109.5 g/km, for 4WD 114.9 g/km.

Engine is an Atkinson 2.0 VTEC with 145bhp and 184bhp electric motor., no mention of total power at maximum but engine and motors can drive together like a PHEV. I read somewhere the design plan was a 50:50 split between EV only time and ICE charging running.

Spec levels are high, all get LED headlights, collision mitigation, lane keeping assist, adaptive cruise. From a look at the normal models already on sale, an SR would be the sweet spot for specification to me.

No 7 seat version on hybrid so I presume some impact from hybrid kit, but 2018/19 CR-V boot is huge anyway so impact looks small.

This could be a game changer for Honda on the company car market, its languished last few years in this with poor CO2 levels meaning high tax.

A lot of UK companies now set a limit of 130g/km for their staff in petrol cars.

So a 4.6M sized roomy 4WD Petrol SUV with good power, good MPG and high equipment levels, based on a new chassis and suspension - that you don't need to plug in, could sell very well.
I am interested for sure. Could it be Honda finally gets ahead?
 
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