Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:38 am 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
greendwarf wrote:
PS. Anko - I think Mitsu's answer fits in with above and I think there is a big difference between "uncomfortable" and what you describe which is "inconvenient.

I do not know exactly what you mean by this, but look at it this way: if I need to depart on a 20 km trip unexpectedly (so no time to preheat), I can choose between burning fuel (even though the destination is well within EV range) or not use the heater. And if my trip happens to be in an emission free zone, I can only decide to not use the heater. After spending quite a lot of money on an electric heater, how is that just "inconvenient"?

greendwarf wrote:
However, the example of moving the car only 11 meters is very exceptional surely?
With a normal car, indeed. With a P(H)EV it can be very common due to the nature of the car. On my current work location, we share 4 charge points with approx. 10 - 15 plugin cars. We have a What's App group that we use in order to optimize use of the charge points. This means that on most days, I have to move my car twice over a very short distance (could be as little as 11 meters): once from a normal bay into a charge bay. And once back to a normal bay. If I do not kill the heater myself, this will result in two totally unneccessary and relatively poluting cold starts. Very bad for the engine too.

As the need for moving the car is a result of it being a plugin, is it too much to ask that I can move the car in EV mode without taking to many precautions myself?

greendwarf wrote:
... then presumably, like me, you would have the car in "not heat" mode by default.
If only the car provided this default (instead of me) it would solve 50% of my problem and 70% of my frustration. As where I might forget, the car wouldn't.

greendwarf wrote:
Even if this was after a longer journey, where you needed cabin heat, did you not kill the heating a few km from destination to save precious fuel? ;)
Perhaps not. If there was dufficient residual heat in the engine I could decide to leave the heater on till the end (the interior cools down rather quickly when you turn off the heater). Or I might forget because I am distracted (by phone call, looking for directions, passengers, ...). And if it was after a short trip within EV range and I had still SOC left, I would not bother with turning down the heat ... If I knew the car would do it for me or if it didn't mean the engine would start automatically on the next take off.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:25 am
Posts: 1102
Location: South Australia
My AUS shipped PHEV may be different to the EU version wrt the heater and ICE operation.

I have checked and on my car, it does not matter if you forgot to turn off the heater when you stopped. Just leave the foot OFF the brake and power ON. After the ACC mode, the PHEV comes ON without the ready light, but you can adjust all of the climate control functions. ICE won't come ON. Turn OFF the climate control and then press the brake and power ON like normal. A few extra seconds and you should achieve an EV only operation.

I will probably never be able to check this in -15C, but others may confirm it.

It is a shame that MMC has not offered this as a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
I am pretty sure that apes to my car as well. But it doesn't change anything: I as a driver have to take precautions in order to prevent the engine from making an unwanted and unneccessary cold start. If I forget because I am in a hurry or what not, it is too late.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:30 am 
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@anko I wrote a long post in reply to you but it seems it disappeared in the cyberspace, but to summarize:

Please post contact details to EU-importer you have a dialogue with so we all can contact them and show we are not happy with how it works now. I'll contact the Swedish importer tomorrow.

To make it very easy, on a short trip of 30 Km I MUST be able to choose only EV and let the car be heated by electricity and I accept that it takes more poser than it woul take to do that by starting the gas engine. I am not only focusing on consumption, it's environmentally stupid to start the engine when not needed, to fire up the gas engine only to warm up the car when I KNOW I can drive the entire way on battery (and perhaps even power the heating) and pollute is just crazy. We can discuss technique etc. but this is a fact, I could be having 0 emissions but Mitsu doesn't let me.

Mitsu must have very bad/non existing Customer Experience as well as Sustainability functions , I have found posts as old as almost 2 years (since the PHEV was released) pointing out the same thing, yet they just released an upgraded version but did not fix this.

If Mitsu doesn't listen we have the option to let car magazines know how environmentally unfriendly the car is in cold weather, and how unnecessary it is and easy to fix.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
I have always communicated via the email address of Mitsubishi NL (contact@mmsn.nl). Don't know the email address of Mistu Europe, but their website (http://www.mitsubishi-motors-europe.com) has a Customer Feedback option at the bottom, that presents a web form where you can leave a comment and even upload some attachments if you want to.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 pm
Posts: 1352
anko wrote:
greendwarf wrote:
PS. Anko - I think Mitsu's answer fits in with above and I think there is a big difference between "uncomfortable" and what you describe which is "inconvenient.

I do not know exactly what you mean by this, but look at it this way: if I need to depart on a 20 km trip unexpectedly (so no time to preheat), I can choose between burning fuel (even though the destination is well within EV range) or not use the heater. And if my trip happens to be in an emission free zone, I can only decide to not use the heater. After spending quite a lot of money on an electric heater, how is that just "inconvenient"?


Now we are really into pedantry - a discussion on semantics. :ugeek: What you describe may well be more than an inconvenience (you use the word frustration) but I can't see how it affects your "comfort" - unless your frustration takes on some strange physical manifestation :?
The answer Mitsu gave you was perfectly reasonable - what they are saying is that if the driver wants to freeze along with any passengers then they have to take active steps to do that. Mitsu designs a car for the majority of anticipated customers who they, no doubt correctly, assume want to be warm in winter.

However, the eccentrics, such as myself, who insist in driving around with no heating to avoid using petrol are catered for, so this just means that your frustration is borne out of your annoyance that the cars controls can't tailored exclusively to you.

You have to remember this is a Japanese car designed with all the cultural baggage that goes with it. They are just not into individuality (and can't actually understand the concept). No Japanese would ever complain like this about the car and would not even think that there might be something wrong. :o


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:38 pm 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
greendwarf wrote:
anko wrote:
greendwarf wrote:
PS. Anko - I think Mitsu's answer fits in with above and I think there is a big difference between "uncomfortable" and what you describe which is "inconvenient.

I do not know exactly what you mean by this, but look at it this way: if I need to depart on a 20 km trip unexpectedly (so no time to preheat), I can choose between burning fuel (even though the destination is well within EV range) or not use the heater. And if my trip happens to be in an emission free zone, I can only decide to not use the heater. After spending quite a lot of money on an electric heater, how is that just "inconvenient"?


Now we are really into pedantry - a discussion on semantics. :ugeek:
And who took us there? It wasn't me. If you are so satisfied with the behaviour of the car in this area (unlike so many others that are asking for EV Only buttons and what not), by all means send them an email about it. They'll love it.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:57 pm 
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anko wrote:
Indeed, 15 deg C means OFF. At least in European models.

Your observations are correct: when the ICE starts for heating, it will also be used to drive the car. Personally, I think that is fine. Once started, lets use it. The more you do with a running engine, the more efficient it gets. I was annoyed not be the fact that it drives the car, but by the fact that it does not also recharge the battery in the process


Are we absolutely sure about this? Having unusually, for me, used the heater 2 nights ago on my Gx3h, the last 2 re-charges have shown an increase in the predicted EV mileage. Without the benefit of any other means of measurement, this suggests to me that the car thinks it can now go further on a full battery, which can only be because it believes I will be using the heater again. But for this to be true, then there must have been some "surplus" energy over and above that used to heat & drive the car - similar to being in Save, i.e. surplus stored and then used up? There were certainly periods when the ICE stopped and the car was still putting out heat to the cabin whilst driving the car in EV.

Admittedly this was all at speeds below 30mph and the heater fan on minimum - so demand on both was relatively low. I assume at higher road (hence more "wind chill) and heat fan speeds the periods of "free energy" would be shorter and less noticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:25 am
Posts: 1102
Location: South Australia
anko wrote:
I am pretty sure that apes to my car as well. But it doesn't change anything: I as a driver have to take precautions in order to prevent the engine from making an unwanted and unneccessary cold start. If I forget because I am in a hurry or what not, it is too late.


For those very short drives, I believe you mentioned 11m distance, surely a precaution of leaving the foot OFF the brake and powering up the PHEV to allow the climate system to be turned OFF and then applying the foot to the brake and pressing the power button again to power ON normally is something that can be done in a hurry.

I had the same issues with running out of reserve battery power when I had forgotten to press the SAVE button. I now have a mod that remembers my preferred setting. I don't think that considering the way the PHEV powers up, that it would be any value to try and turn OFF the climate system when it is really cold with an external mod on power ON. MMC would need to get the team together and make changes to firmware for many interacting systems that may be considered to have little benefit to most drivers.

I have a long wish list, including sticky buttons with memory of a drivers setting. Reverting to a default is just lazy programming. The lack of firmware updates in a car with essentially a platform made for upgrades may come back and bite Mitsubishi with lower new sales as buyers realize they have to buy a new car to get a firmware mod.

I do consider that the ECO button is an ideal button candidate for a sticky feature. Maybe in the setup menu, a driver could set particular EV and climate preferences, that could be controlled by a sticky ECO button. This would be a firmware mod, and would not require any new buttons, just an addendum to the manual, and a new menu in the setup.

There is a general lack of user settings in the PHEV. Maybe like the software is unfinished, or was signed off in a hurry. The release of a new model with essentially the same firmware hints towards feedback not getting back or an unwillingness of MMC to make changes that give drivers some more useful user options.

_________________
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PHEV Solar Recharging Station
1.7kW Solar Grid connect

Make the GRID your friend.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2593
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
greendwarf wrote:
anko wrote:
Indeed, 15 deg C means OFF. At least in European models.

Your observations are correct: when the ICE starts for heating, it will also be used to drive the car. Personally, I think that is fine. Once started, lets use it. The more you do with a running engine, the more efficient it gets. I was annoyed not be the fact that it drives the car, but by the fact that it does not also recharge the battery in the process


Are we absolutely sure about this? Having unusually, for me, used the heater 2 nights ago on my Gx3h, the last 2 re-charges have shown an increase in the predicted EV mileage. Without the benefit of any other means of measurement, this suggests to me that the car thinks it can now go further on a full battery, which can only be because it believes I will be using the heater again. But for this to be true, then there must have been some "surplus" energy over and above that used to heat & drive the car - similar to being in Save, i.e. surplus stored and then used up? There were certainly periods when the ICE stopped and the car was still putting out heat to the cabin whilst driving the car in EV.

Admittedly this was all at speeds below 30mph and the heater fan on minimum - so demand on both was relatively low. I assume at higher road (hence more "wind chill) and heat fan speeds the periods of "free energy" would be shorter and less noticeable.
I would think / hope that EV range is how far you can get on what is in your battery without intermediate taking into account recharges. So, even if the battery was recharged when the engine was started for heating purposes, I would be surprised if that would impact EV range upfront. An increase of EV range would, IMHO, mean that during the last trips you used less Wh per mile. Which could well be the case as your latest trips were at relatively low speeds.


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