Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:35 am
Posts: 7
@HHL Yes, only 200W, but better than nothing :) And provides heating immediately, unlike the ICE...

Drove 40 km yesterday with only steering wheel heat and front seats on max, not too cold to be honest, with -15 outside temp. 0 emissions the entire trip :)

Setting the inside temp to anything above 15 degress (including 15,5) starts the ICE at these outside temps. Then it is unpredictable how it behaves, starts, stops etc, as there are too many unknown parameters to take into consideration...

A funny thing is that sometimes the ICE is fired but it does not increase in rpm when pushing the gas pedal, it only keeps the engine warm at constant low rpm, but mostly it sounds like it directly increases the rpms when I accelerate, resembling a normal gas driven car (very frustrating). That's also very strange, if the ICE had to be powered on to provide heating then it should behave independently of how I drive and instead focusing on providing enough heat with as low power consumption as possible when there is enough battery, instead it creates and pumps (unnedded) electricity to the battery when accelerating which would be understandable if the battery was low and needed more power directly when accelerating, which is not the case.

Would be interesting to speak with the engineers at Mitsu... :)


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am
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anko wrote:
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.


You've said this before - and I'm not in a position to disagree with you - but it does sound like a strange design decision if it is as black and white as you paint it! If it has started the engine to provide heat and there is capacity in the battery to accept charge, why not run the engine closer to maximum efficiency and actually get some charge into it?


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:35 am
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@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels..., no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:47 am 
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iggys76 wrote:
@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels..., no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...


The orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels on the monitor indicates the mechanical drive to the wheels in parallel mode and can only be present with the car doing a moderate speed - so you will not see it under the circumstances you are describing. I guess the rationale for what you are seeing is that the car has decided to run the engine to provide heat because of the ambient temperature and then decides that it might as well also use the engine to move the car, thus saving your battery charge for later when it is up to temperature. Whether or not you agree with that strategy is a different question.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
iggys76 wrote:
@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels...
As far as I know, you cannot charge and discharge a battery at the same time. So, when you see what you see (two blue arrows), it can mean one of three things:

- The generator is powering the E-motors
- The generator is powering the E-motors and some surplus energy is going to the battery
- The generator is powering the E-motors and some power shortage is covered for by the battery

but it cannot mean:

- The generator is charging the battery and the battery is powering the wheels.

iggys76 wrote:
, no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...

The orange arrow is only visible in parallel hybrid mode. In this mode, the RPMs are linear with vehicle speed. You will notice that under these conditions (engine started just because of heating) parallel mode will not be engaged, not even when you go over 40 MPH.

In serial hybrid drive (engine drives generator, generator provides power to the wheels) the engine RPMs are to a large extend independent of vehicle speed, regardless whether battery recharging is taking place.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
maby wrote:
anko wrote:
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.


You've said this before - and I'm not in a position to disagree with you - but it does sound like a strange design decision if it is as black and white as you paint it! If it has started the engine to provide heat and there is capacity in the battery to accept charge, why not run the engine closer to maximum efficiency and actually get some charge into it?
That is exactly what I hoped for. And also that it engages in parallel mode over 40 MPH. But it doesn't do that either.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:35 am
Posts: 260
Location: Poole Dorset
Anko,
What about a convential car? Ice turns alternator charging battery whilst battery feeds lights, heater fan ,air con etc? Or am I being too simplistic?
Mine often runs with arrow into battery & arrow out to wheels.

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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:55 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:35 am
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@anko Ok, but very confusing, the arrows and the icons clearly show the ICE powering a battery that is then powering the wheels... There should be a blue arrow (electricity) from the ICE to the wheels in this case, but there is not. So the battery icon is probably the generator.

Also, in what you wrote is serial hybrid drive (engine drives generator, generator provides power to the wheels) my engine does respond to the gas pedal/speed, the more i push the higher rpms (not always but mostly), I guess that's because the engine needs to produce more power to power the wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: ICE running unnecessarily?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:10 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am
Posts: 2789
I'm pretty sure it is not a two-port battery, so there's no question of the engine pushing power into the battery and the motors drawing power from it simultaneously. I think the relationship is more a case of float charging - the engine produces power which is supplied to the controller which, primarily drives the motors and pushes any spare into the battery. This will slowly increase the level of charge to the point where the controller decides to shut the engine down for a while and run in EV mode till the charge has been run down a bit. The graphic does not make this totally clear.


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