Have we bought a lemon?

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Mini

New member
Joined
Jan 13, 2016
Messages
3
Location
Cornwall, UK.
Hi everyone, I'm a newbie on this forum having just bought a 64 plate Phev, with only 1400 miles on the clock, from our local dealer.
Unfortunately since we took possession of it, it has been back to the dealer twice and about to go in for a third time!
In just 6 weeks we have experienced the following faults and are wondering if anyone else has had any similar issues?

Warning lights appearing for no apparent reason - on investigation one of the fault codes turned out to be a problem with the catalytic converter, which was changed under warranty, but on a 12 month old car with 1400 miles, seriously?!
Maximum charge range following overnight charges of 17 miles.
Car failing to engage fwd or reverse properly, requiring car to be switched off then on again.
Not engaging Save Mode until about a mile after being selected, now not working at all.
Parking lines occasionally not displaying on rear camera.
Petrol engine cutting in by itself when the car is either stationary or travelling with little or no load on the electric motor.
Heated seat taking 10 minutes to switch itself on.
Seat belt sensor working occasionally when child's car seat on passenger seat - only just started happening.

Right now we are just waiting for something else to go wrong, personally I think there is something seriosly amiss with the computer or its software. Any ideas?

Thanks, Gavin.
 
Mini said:
Hi everyone, I'm a newbie on this forum having just bought a 64 plate Phev, with only 1400 miles on the clock, from our local dealer.
Unfortunately since we took possession of it, it has been back to the dealer twice and about to go in for a third time!
In just 6 weeks we have experienced the following faults and are wondering if anyone else has had any similar issues?

Warning lights appearing for no apparent reason - on investigation one of the fault codes turned out to be a problem with the catalytic converter, which was changed under warranty, but on a 12 month old car with 1400 miles, seriously?!
Maximum charge range following overnight charges of 17 miles.
Car failing to engage fwd or reverse properly, requiring car to be switched off then on again.
Not engaging Save Mode until about a mile after being selected, now not working at all.
Parking lines occasionally not displaying on rear camera.
Petrol engine cutting in by itself when the car is either stationary or travelling with little or no load on the electric motor.
Heated seat taking 10 minutes to switch itself on.
Seat belt sensor working occasionally when child's car seat on passenger seat - only just started happening.

Right now we are just waiting for something else to go wrong, personally I think there is something seriosly amiss with the computer or its software. Any ideas?

Thanks, Gavin.

From what you describe, it could be a misunderstand of how most things work:

Maximum charge range following overnight charges of 17 miles. <- Range depends on driver ability and use of accessories. I get about 45km on a full charge. My wife gets about 35km. If we turned on the heater or air conditioner, it'd drop even further.

Car failing to engage fwd or reverse properly, requiring car to be switched off then on again. <- This can happen when your foot is not firmly on the brake when you hit the power button.

Not engaging Save Mode until about a mile after being selected, now not working at all. <- How can you tell if it engages save mode or not? Even in save mode, it's programmed to keep the battery power NEAR the save point, not exactly on it. So unless you're hitting save when you're full, and it's going down past half, how do you know it's not working?

Parking lines occasionally not displaying on rear camera. <- Parking lines don't show until the computer has finished booting. So if you reverse in the first minute of turning the car on, you're on your own.

Petrol engine cutting in by itself when the car is either stationary or travelling with little or no load on the electric motor. <- There are electric devices other than the motor. E.g Totally normal if you have air conditioning (hot or cold), headlights, seat warmers, or other high drain 12v devices turned on.

Anyway, my point is, almost everything you've described there seems to have a reasonable explanation pending further details from you. You could reply and prove me "wrong" and saying the explanations are definitely not right, but with the level of detail you've provided, it seems like a mismatch in expectation, not a fault in your car.
 
Thanks forr your reply Sunder.
We too are aware that things could be explained by not understanding how the car works and have been very careful to bear this in mind. The thing is, that these issues have only just started manifesting themselves and even the dealer agrees that they shouldn't be happening.

As far as things like the EV range is concerned, that is what is displayed on the dash following a full charge not what we ae actually achieving.
The engagement of fwd and reverse is with the foot firmly on the pedal.
I forgot to mention that when the car is turned on in the morning following a full charge, the petrol engine starts first before the car even moves or anything is selected.

I could go on but I think you probably get my drift. I have a lot of mechanical sympathy, being a classic car owner who does his own maintenance, so the actual operation of the car was one of the first ghings I checked out.
When we collected the car we were surprised at how few miles it had accrued and we now strongly suspect that the previous owner had similar issues and returned it.

I posted this hallf in the hope that someone might recognise these symptoms and say, that sounds just like thd car they returned!
 
Mini said:
I forgot to mention that when the car is turned on in the morning following a full charge, the petrol engine starts first before the car even moves or anything is selected.
Is this after turning off the heater at the end of the last trip, the day before?

If you don't turn off the heater the engine will start on power up the next morning, unless it is not too cold or unless you properly preheat the car before powering up (in case you have an electric heater).
 
Mini said:
As far as things like the EV range is concerned, that is what is displayed on the dash following a full charge not what we ae actually achieving.
quote]

This still seems to show a misunderstanding of the car. The 17 miles is only the predicted range and clearly the other issues you describe would contribute to this reduced figure, whether they are faults or not. So what is the actual EV range you are getting? - that is what is important. If over 20 in winter, why worry?
 
greendwarf said:
...

This still seems to show a misunderstanding of the car. The 17 miles is only the predicted range and clearly the other issues you describe would contribute to this reduced figure, whether they are faults or not. So what is the actual EV range you are getting? - that is what is important. If over 20 in winter, why worry?

Agreed. Obviously the catalytic converter should not have failed so soon, but many of the other issues the OP describes could be down to misoperation or misunderstanding. We really need more information to decide if the car has more fundamental issues. The OP does not say where he is - if he is in the colder parts of the UK, 17 miles EV range is quite possible at this time of year and the engine will run quite a lot of the time unless you take special action as has been discussed here many times.
 
Mini said:
Car failing to engage fwd or reverse properly, requiring car to be switched off then on again.
Not engaging Save Mode until about a mile after being selected, now not working at all.
Parking lines occasionally not displaying on rear camera.
Petrol engine cutting in by itself when the car is either stationary or travelling with little or no load on the electric motor.
Heated seat taking 10 minutes to switch itself on.
Seat belt sensor working occasionally when child's car seat on passenger seat - only just started happening.

Right now we are just waiting for something else to go wrong, personally I think there is something seriosly amiss with the computer or its software. Any ideas?

Thanks, Gavin.

You say you have your foot on the pedal... but.. did you when you started the car or when you switched from accessory mode. If you didn't, that is exactly what happens. Do you really put a child seat on the passenger seat? That is a big no in many cars as kids have been killed by airbags in the passenger seat. My reversing camera does the same, as Anko said, it takes a while for the computer to boot... don't know about the heater.. we certainly don't need that here at the moment.
Do you select save mode when the battery is full? If so, it will not engage right away.
It may be a good idea if you could persuade your dealer to lend you another car for a day, and see if you have the same issues.
 
Can we clarify this suggestion that it is taking time for Save mode to engage? Are you saying that there is a delay before the display on the dashboard says "Save"? That would certainly be anomalous - but as others have said, Save mode does not try to keep the charge level absolutely fixed, it does permit some variation and will allow a fully charged battery to drift down by a bar or two.
 
The reduced range can be checked by requesting a battery capacity check at the dealer, or buying an OBD Wifi adapter and the EvBatMon app and measuring it yourself.

I have had first hand experience with essentially the first PHEV's imported to AUS for sale. The computer systems in the PHEV are a lot slower to boot up compared to a classic mechanical key switch car. The reversing camera lines are slow to appear. It is a lot easier to select neutral by accident in a LHD version. I have had the electronic immobilizer come on by itself while driving as well as a loss of drive. My PHEV that had problems was only replaced after the dealer had first hand experience as well. Luckily my PHEV had only just left the showroom when problems affecting driving and safety first appeared. You need to convince a dealer with absolute certainty that something has a fault before you have any case. My particular case took 6 months to resolve, with my PHEV spending several months back at the dealer in total, being tested. I was supplied a loan PHEV from MMA and that worked as expected and I was fortunate that a colleague purchased at the same time and we could compare notes to identify differences that could be checked as problems or not.

It has been mentioned that I bullied the dealer and my PHEV was replaced. This was not the case. My PHEV was unable to be repaired in a timely or cost effective way, so I was offered a refund, or replacement. I chose a replacement.

Has so far turned out well with completion of a several across AUS trips and now 45000+km in the first year. Personal mods have helped and all systems are still working well.
 
gwatpe said:
The computer systems in the PHEV are a lot slower to boot up compared to a classic mechanical key switch car. The reversing camera lines are slow to appear
MMCS is slow. I grant you that. MMCS is also responsible for displaying the ones for the reversing camera. But how do you know other computers are slow to boot up?
 
anko said:
gwatpe said:
The computer systems in the PHEV are a lot slower to boot up compared to a classic mechanical key switch car. The reversing camera lines are slow to appear
MMCS is slow. I grant you that. MMCS is also responsible for displaying the ones for the reversing camera. But how do you know other computers are slow to boot up?

Since you can press the start button, engage drive and move away within a couple of seconds, it is clear that the critical computers boot very quickly.
 
To clarify a few points here as I think there are several which are being overlooked.

After an overnight charge (from 5.30pm to 8.15am) it states the car is fully charged with 17 miles showing on the dash (on 2 occasions I've been lucky enough to get 24 miles!) - I realise that I will not necessarily get 17 miles due to hills, heater, lights etc. My daily run to school and work is 25 miles - all of it on single carriage A & B roads, I've experimented with routes to find the most EV friendly and have not done this journey yet on just EV mode, but the last couple of weeks it's been less than normal. Our belief from what the sale's rep told us, our own research and reading other people's posts on this forum is that after a overnight charge the mileage showing on the dash should be higher.

Yes we have a child's car seat in the front passenger seat - it is NOT a rearward facing seat and is for a 7 year old. I ensure the seat is as far back as possible to avoid full impact from the airbag should we have an accident. It is not illegal to have a forward facing car seat in the front. The reason it is in the front is because when it is in the back and my daughter is sat in it and I go around a corner, no matter how slow, the seat tips over - this does not happen in the front which is why it is in the front! The sensors have never previously been triggered - that has only happened over the past couple of days but not on every journey.

The engine light comes on but goes off after a restart - this has happened several times now.

Not engaging gears - as far as I am aware the brake pedal has been pushed down fully when starting, and has in fact happened after being driven several miles, then stopping but not turning off. It has then failed to engage gears so I cannot see that not pushing the brake pedal down is relevant.

Save mode - on several occasions I have pushed the 'save' button whilst having between 5 and 8 miles left on the EV range - it displays more or less instantly on the dash. The EV mileage continues to decrease (at varying rates dependent on the road, hills etc).

The petrol engine coming on at start up - we live in Cornwall so not the coldest area in England. I shall check the heater situation next time on start up - all I can say is that I take all your comments on board and will ensure the heater is turned off to see if that makes a difference. It has only been the last couple of days where it has been cold (4 degrees) previous to this it's been anything from 7 to 10 degrees.

Reverse lines - again I shall monitor this but I don't believe it's happening on start up as I reverse into parking spaces and drive out so therefore do not select reverse within a minute of starting up.

Heated seat - I've used the heated seat on approx 8 occasions - normally it warms up within a few minutes. On one occasion it took between 10 - 15 minutes to warm up.

Warning triangle - on start up I have had the warning triangle come on for no apparent reason. All doors and boot was shut, all seat belts on. Turned engine off and restarted and warning triangle didn't come back on.


Yes we are relatively new to the Phev, but we did a lot of research before committing to spend the vast sum of money that we did. We bought this car at the beginning of December and within 3 days of buying this car it was back in the garage for an engine light which turned out to be the catalytic converter (1400 miles on the clock), took the garage 4 days to fix and then 1 week later it was back in again for another 4 days due to an engine light which was something to do with an issue on start up and the dealership had to contact Mitsubishi as it was an unknown code to them! Since we've had it back it was hardly used for the Christmas period, and we've had all of the above faults since 4 January. Some may be a misunderstanding on our part but I don't believe all!

The car is booked back in the garage on Monday morning.

I'd be interested to hear what EV mileage range your cars display after a full overnight charge.
 
Which model is it? Some have an electric heater some don't.

That may be making a difference to the available range and if certain things are inadvertently left on, like the heated seats, aircon, heater, etc. Although I leave on what I need everyday and ignore the range reduction. It is a car after all and it's easy to get hung up on what it's doing when frankly it's not that important. I let the car get on with it now and just turn off those things that annoy some of which are only on the HS which I didn't want anyway!

Also as the weather gets colder, ie below 10C overnight, the battery takes less charge as it is below its optimum working temperature and the car starts up the engine immediately. I'm sure you've read about all those variables on this forum.

For reference my 2015 GX4HS lives outside and has shown reducing range, now rarely above 18 miles at start up due, I believe, to the lower winter temperatures and more usage of the heater and aircon to clear steamy windows, etc. We've only seen over 32 miles once interestingly the day after use of an Ecotricity motorway service fast charger ie after another separate overnight charge. Maybe that had an effect on the battery charge capability?

As to gear selection I find that this needs to be relatively short but precise with respect to holding the joystick over to the right and then forward or reverse and then let go. If you hold it to the right for too long it thinks you want neutral and that's what you get! You certainly can't rest your hand on the gear lever...
 
Miniswife said:
To clarify a few points here as I think there are several which are being overlooked.

...
I'd be interested to hear what EV mileage range your cars display after a full overnight charge.

OK - several of those observations do sound like potential faults. As far as the predicted range goes, mine tends to show between 15 and 20 miles at the moment. It adjusts its estimates based on recently achieved ranges and, while it tends to be very optimistic when the car is new, it does seem to iterate towards more accurate figures with use. I think you said that this is an almost new car, didn't you? If that is the case, it will be basing its estimates on the performance that the previous user was achieving - if he was anything like me, then that could explain its current low estimates. if your pattern of usage regularly produces better ranges, then the estimates will creep back up.
 
Thanks for your replies, particularly those from Oz and Devon.
We will continue to investigate the car and hopefully compare notes but I do feel that there is something not quite right with the vehicle which is why I originally posted the question.

BTW, my work is dealing with computer controlled electro/hydraulic/mechanical devices so I do have a good idea how these things are supposed to work. I am aware that PHEV driving is rather different to driving a normal car so any helpful guidance, that the dealer was not able to provide, is always appreciated so that we can get the best out of the car.

Thanks
Mini.
 
LOL - I've been calling mine a Lemon ever since I picked it up - because I am missing my 2.2 Turbo-Nutter-Diesel Mazda6, which did 55mpg, and was fast, and had a huge boot, and didnt need to be plugged in every night.

I do feel for you though, it sounds like you got a rotten deal.
 
Since you've bought a car with some miles on the clock, you should be careful to hunt down settings left by a previous owner...

In my case the car was mysteriously losing power overnight, because someone had set the timer to heat the vehicle at 6pm every night!

Carefully step through all the settings on the computer display to see what state your car is currently in.

The guessometer readings could be low because of the way the car was driven at/by the dealer, overtime it will change to reflect your driving habits.

The failure of the catalytic converter is very weird, however, given the low mileage, could have been an original manufacturing fault. Let's hope it's not because some clown put leaded petrol in the tank.

Andy
 
Just to emphasise the pointlessness of the guessometer, I left the house this evening with a fully charged battery and a predicted range of 13 miles. I drove 100 miles mostly on save and arrived in Southampton with 15 bars of battery and a predicted range of 20 miles.
 
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