Did Mitsu blunder by not putting 16Kwh battery in US version

Took a test drive of the Outlander PHEV this weekend. Very nice car. I was running the numbers to figure out if I'm going to purchase or not and it occured to me that Mitsubishi only get $5800 or so in Federal tax credit due to the 12kWh battery. A 16kWh battery would get the full $7,500 credit.

If we assume $200/kWh cost which I think is conservative, (Nissan and Tesla are closer to $150 or lower) that would add just $800 extra cost while getting an extra $1,700 in federal tax incentive. Essentially the car would be almost $1,000 cheaper to the consumer and be better, pushing the electric range beyond the average daily commute.

Battery density has improved in the last 4-5 years, so there should be no problem fitting 16 kWh into the same space as the 12 kWh did 4-5 years ago.

Mitsubishi are leaving $1,700 tax credit on the table with each unit sold. A bigger battery for the US version seems so obvious, at least to me. What say you?

JPWhite said:

If we assume $200/kWh cost which I think is conservative, (Nissan and Tesla are closer to $150 or lower) that would add just $800 extra cost while getting an extra $1,700 in federal tax incentive. Essentially the car would be almost $1,000 cheaper to the consumer and be better, pushing the electric range beyond the average daily commute.

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Really? I've only seen figures quoted for replacement batteries here in Europe between 2&3 times that price. If you are correct then it brings them down to a "consumable" price - not much more than a few sets of good tyres - which would considerably extend ownership and boost re-sale prices

Yep Chevy says 155 per kwh a couple years ago.

Traditional Car makers don't like re-engineering cars before the end of the run unlike tesla who are happy continually improving.

16kwh would be great

There might be a difference between published/discussed production cost and sales price to the client...

;-), Harald

If it was being designed for the US market, sure they would probably have targeted 16kwh for the max tax benefit just like Chrysler did with the Pacifica. But it appears that Mitsubishi really tried to change as little as possible when bringing the existing model into the US, likely to keep costs down. A completely different battery would have been a pretty major change, and nobody even knew if the US tax credit would survive until a few weeks ago.

That being said, I have no doubt that the next redesign will include a higher capacity battery and will likely include other niceties like Mitsubishi Connect and a HUD like have already been unveiled in the Eclipse Cross.

JPWhite said:

Mitsubishi are leaving $1,700 tax credit on the table with each unit sold. A bigger battery for the US version seems so obvious, at least to me. What say you?

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A larger capacity battery would be nice from a range perspective, but it would likely mean a greater than $1700 sticker price increase. It would mean a larger battery box, electronics changes, more testing/validation, likely 'new product' warranty snags, etc. Also, the US tax credit isn't available to everyone and is only useful if one owes the .gov taxes to begin with. And it can't be carried over from year to year. I'm glad they left the car as is and got them here.

It would also take longer to charge.

AndyH said:

JPWhite said:

Mitsubishi are leaving $1,700 tax credit on the table with each unit sold. A bigger battery for the US version seems so obvious, at least to me. What say you?

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A larger capacity battery would be nice from a range perspective, but it would likely mean a greater than $1700 sticker price increase. It would mean a larger battery box, electronics changes, more testing/validation, likely 'new product' warranty snags, etc. Also, the US tax credit isn't available to everyone and is only useful if one owes the .gov taxes to begin with. And it can't be carried over from year to year. I'm glad they left the car as is and got them here.

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Nissan have fitted 40kWh in the same box as the original 24kWh and the MSRP is the same.

Additionally the tax credit is available to everyone. If you don't have the tax liability to be able to claim against an outright purchase, the tax credit gets applied as part of a lease.

greendwarf said:

It would also take longer to charge.

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How would that ever be a downside?

Agreed. A 16kWh Battery what shoukd have been used for NA Markrt. Even at $200/kWh the additional 4kWh battery would have been the extra cost of $800.00 or even $1200 if they wanted a bigger Mark up.

I am surprised Nissan did not step in and demand a bigger battery dince Nissan has a 30% stake in Mitsubishi.

I like my 2018 PHEV GT with 12 kWh battery but in teality in winter months it is vehaving more like an 8kWh Battey as my range is under 20 kms when I use the Heater. Need Heater at -20'C. Heated seats and and stearing wgeel are not enough.

Harald said:

There might be a difference between published/discussed production cost and sales price to the client...

;-), Harald

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This

anko said:

greendwarf said:

It would also take longer to charge.

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How would that ever be a downside?

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Depends on the "cheap rate" window on your electricity tariff - so might be more expensive.

greendwarf said:

anko said:

greendwarf said:

It would also take longer to charge.

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How would that ever be a downside?

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Depends on the "cheap rate" window on your electricity tariff - so might be more expensive.

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Well, if we’re wishing for a bigger battery, we might as well wish in a faster charger too. 6.6kw would be more than enough to make up the difference.

JPWhite said:

AndyH said:

JPWhite said:

Mitsubishi are leaving $1,700 tax credit on the table with each unit sold. A bigger battery for the US version seems so obvious, at least to me. What say you?

Click to expand...

A larger capacity battery would be nice from a range perspective, but it would likely mean a greater than $1700 sticker price increase. It would mean a larger battery box, electronics changes, more testing/validation, likely 'new product' warranty snags, etc. Also, the US tax credit isn't available to everyone and is only useful if one owes the .gov taxes to begin with. And it can't be carried over from year to year. I'm glad they left the car as is and got them here.

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Nissan have fitted 40kWh in the same box as the original 24kWh and the MSRP is the same.

Additionally the tax credit is available to everyone. If you don't have the tax liability to be able to claim against an outright purchase, the tax credit gets applied as part of a lease.

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Nissan is stuffing larger capacity cells into their 'tuna tins'. The cell used in the Mitsubishi is in a hard case - it's not a soft-sided cell. Maybe they could have gone from the 40AH to the 50AH cell available, but that's going to cost more. Nissan can eat some of the battery upgrade price because they don't have active thermal management - that's something that can't be done with a hybrid due to the 100,000 mile/10 year emission warranty requirement. The battery's part of the car's emission control system - Mitsu can't afford the sort of premature failures Nissan has put owners through.

No, the tax credit is not available to everyone. I'm retired AF and living from a pension and dividends. I have very low tax liability by design and cannot take the credit for my purchase. Mercedes might have gotten the credit when I leased my smart, but I didn't see any of it.

AndyH said:

Mitsu can't afford the sort of premature failures Nissan has put owners through.

No, the tax credit is not available to everyone. I'm retired AF and living from a pension and dividends. I have very low tax liability by design and cannot take the credit for my purchase. Mercedes might have gotten the credit when I leased my smart, but I didn't see any of it.

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I agree Mitsubishi can't afford premature failure. I'd also argue neither can Nissan. I won't buy another Nissan EV until the battery problem is solved, there is no evidence I'm aware of that they have addressed the issue adequately.

Yeah, the problem of rebates or credits going to the dealer is they can choose to share them or keep them. It's hard enough to figure out what's going on with the financial shell games if you buy, it's even more obfuscated with a lease.

I just realized thst the Smartphone app for the PHEV Remote Connect II didplays 16 segments on the Battery state of charge picture on the screen.

Think perhaps Mitsubishi was actually thinking of installing a 16 kWh Main Drive Battery?

It would be odd if they didn't design some expansion..

But usually car production runs are priced down to the cent for parts costs based on total numbers etc.

PHEV07 said:

I just realized thst the Smartphone app for the PHEV Remote Connect II didplays 16 segments on the Battery state of charge picture on the screen.

Think perhaps Mitsubishi was actually thinking of installing a 16 kWh Main Drive Battery?

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with my programmer hat on, I would say don't read too much into that. 16 is a magic number for other reasons.

that said, I'd be happy with an extra 4kWh... there was the (Polish?) guy who repacked his to 20kWh and the Scottish guy who dismantled one so it's physically possible to do.
Maybe one day we can crowd fund a battery update program


(edit - impossible -> possible)

HappyHeyoka said:

PHEV07 said:

I just realized thst the Smartphone app for the PHEV Remote Connect II didplays 16 segments on the Battery state of charge picture on the screen.

Think perhaps Mitsubishi was actually thinking of installing a 16 kWh Main Drive Battery?

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with my programmer hat on, I would say don't read too much into that. 16 is a magic number for other reasons.

that said, I'd be happy with an extra 4kWh... there was the (Polish?) guy who repacked his to 20kWh and the Scottish guy who dismantled one so it's physically impossible to do.
Maybe one day we can crowd fund a battery update program

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Yes I saw that Youtube video. Would be nice to add an additional 4kWh.

Wish there was a "Like " Button in this Forum.

AndyH said:

Nissan is stuffing larger capacity cells into their 'tuna tins'. The cell used in the Mitsubishi is in a hard case - it's not a soft-sided cell. Maybe they could have gone from the 40AH to the 50AH cell available, but that's going to cost more. Nissan can eat some of the battery upgrade price because they don't have active thermal management - that's something that can't be done with a hybrid due to the 100,000 mile/10 year emission warranty requirement. The battery's part of the car's emission control system - Mitsu can't afford the sort of premature failures Nissan has put owners through.

No, the tax credit is not available to everyone. I'm retired AF and living from a pension and dividends. I have very low tax liability by design and cannot take the credit for my purchase. Mercedes might have gotten the credit when I leased my smart, but I didn't see any of it.

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Good point

Our PHEV use 40Ah in a form/size /shape that nobody else is using ... making them less flexible to take advantage of the evolution of lithium cell in the last years

Most of the other producers have their EV battery based on more traditional 18650 cells, which open endless possibility

Yes .... it will be nice to have 16kwh (or even more) ... I believe the battery degradation will be even less ... our PHEV is designed to use up to 60kw and recharge up to 35kw (using regen) .. normally lithium batteries are happy to be used with 1h discharge and 2h recharge ... that means the PHEV battery are used up to 5 time over the ideal charging and discharging

An evidence of it .. for people with the OBD2 apps ... it is visible that the PHEV can bring down the cell up to 3.5v, which is not really an ideal state ... also a sign that the internal resistance of these cells is relative high for the type of usage ... 3.50v when at rest would be 3.85v ... it means up to ~5kw of wasted energy ... ~10 of loss efficiency only due to high internal resistance of the used battery

Still I don't get why Mitsubishi did not ask Panasonic or other experienced Lithium Battery manufactures ... instead to use the GS-Yuasa .. which has a long history only on Lead Acid Battery production ...

PS: Anyhow ... The VTech guy from Poland did prove that it is possible to put a bigger battery inside the PHEV ... unfortunately he is not sharing his finding on this matter (would be nice to see what is the battery degradation after 1y) .... he did not even disclose which type of batteries he did use