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mrpea

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
2
Hello there!

We brought home our new outlander phev yesterday (which was very exciting). The dealer told me not to drive with the heating on, or the engine kicks in (which I've read a few times).

What's the reason for this though? I understand heating is probably pretty harsh on the battery, but if the heating is on, how much does it affect efficiency? When it came on (and I've not driven it many times of course, I've some experimenting to do) it seemed to be driving using the engine, is that right? Have I bought a phev that doesn't require plugging in when you want to be warm as the engine is doing all of the work? I'm very confused!

Help :)
 
Hello and congrats on your new beautiful PHEV.
You'll soon learn that the car's way of doing things is pretty consistent and straightforward (albeit unconventional compared to the traditional cars, that is).
Having said the above, I agree that one of the exceptions being the heating part, though. I was very surprised too that when I turned the heating on (even just to demist the windshield), the engine came on right away.

I came to learn it has two functions:
A/ power the heating module as it consumes much more energy compared to the A/C cooling in warm weather, and thus the battery is being assisted
B/ Pre-heat oil in the engine's oil sump to make the ICE ready for operating in cold conditions

There are also some good news though, while point B/ seems impossible to be stopped (at this point), it is actually possible to prevent the things in point B/. If you really need that, there is a solution, called PHEVBox -- a small plug-n-play device which, among many other functions - has an option to stop ICE run for heating. (Still it can't stop the ICE start for oil pre-heating, but allegedly the overall ICE run is reduced to ~30% when heating, compared to the factory setting) Google the phev box if you like the idea (but be prepared for forking out some ~210 quids for it).

Remark: I don't really get why PHEV factory design of the heating related ICE start function was designed this way. ICE oil preheating should be either done electronically, but most importantly, it shouldn't be triggered by manual heating start (unreliable cause), but rather based on the outside temperature. If I sit in my car which has been parking outside in -10 C, not engaging heating and start off in EV driving for a few mins, then upon need, pressing hard on the accelerator - the ICE will come on, be revving, with a cold oil of minus 10 degrees, which is obviously an unhealthy operation.
 
I have never seen any proof of the ice comming on to preheat the oil. On the other hand, I have seen reports from guys in Scandinavia that were able to drive without ICE at very low temperatures, by properly preheating the interior before taking off.

If you would ask me, I would say option B does nor exist :cry:
 
When you say new, do you mean new car for you, or new -new? and which model do you have?

Some lower models only have heating from the engine so it has to run when you want heat.

Higher models have an electric heater run from the battery so they don't need the engine to run. However if you start the car and its below 10C outside the engine will start for a while also. Perhaps why the dealer advised you to turn the heating off to keep the engine off.

We can only guess which until you tell us the model and year you have.
 
BobEngineer said:
However if you start the car and its below 10C outside the engine will start for a while also.
Hi Bob, in my experience this is a bit high, it has to be colder than this. For me its been around the 2 or 3C mark or below (with no pre-heat). This may be affected by the heater setting which for me is usually 18/19C.
Cheers.
 
BobEngineer said:
Some lower models only have heating from the engine so it has to run when you want heat.

Higher models have an electric heater run from the battery so they don't need the engine to run.

Is that based on model year, or..? Do you have more info about this, i'd like to know what about mine (MY 2014)

Thx
 
MikkB said:
BobEngineer said:
However if you start the car and its below 10C outside the engine will start for a while also.
Hi Bob, in my experience this is a bit high, it has to be colder than this. For me its been around the 2 or 3C mark or below (with no pre-heat). This may be affected by the heater setting which for me is usually 18/19C.
Cheers.
But yours has an EV mode and you use it?

My 2013 model doen't have that. In order to run the heater with no ICE, it must be at least 7 deg C outside. Then I must:
- set the heater to 15 deg C before starting the car (which by itself is a challenge, if you haven't done it at the end of the previous trip)
- start the car
- select ECO mode
- set the heater to 15.5 deg C
- monitor power consumption of the heater via MMCS
- every time power consumption is down quite a bit, crank up the heater 0.5 deg C.
- if you go to quickly, the ICE may start after all

When you park the car for five minutes and allow the interior to cool off a bit, the ICE will start when you start the car again. Unless you follow the same procedure again.

This was the biggest issue I've had with the car. I could charge it at work. But obviously, I needed / wanted to move the car when charging was complete. Sometimes, I needed to move it no more than 15 meters. But if I had forgotten to turn off the heater when arriving at work, the ICE would start. Happened quite a lot. I really hated this about the car (past tense as my wife drives it now).

Perhaps for the newer models (with EV mode button) you can do this or a similar procedure from a lower temperature setting. But if I am not mistaken about how it works it is quite a true blunder that EV mode is just "EV Priority" and not "EV Only" (as we have been asking for for several years) and / or they didn't make EV mode sticky.
 
anko said:
MikkB said:
BobEngineer said:
However if you start the car and its below 10C outside the engine will start for a while also.
Hi Bob, in my experience this is a bit high, it has to be colder than this. For me its been around the 2 or 3C mark or below (with no pre-heat). This may be affected by the heater setting which for me is usually 18/19C.
Cheers.
But yours has an EV mode and you use it?
Yes, I use it but the ICE still starts if its close to freezing outside and no pre-heat. Its been suggested that maybe I have just been too slow to hit the EV button so I'm going to try and be quicker on the trigger to see if that helps. TBH I'm not worried enough by it to start messing around with heater settings and have no plans to drive around in a freezing cold cabin.
 
MikkB said:
Yes, I use it but the ICE still starts if its close to freezing outside and no pre-heat. Its been suggested that maybe I have just been too slow to hit the EV button so I'm going to try and be quicker on the trigger to see if that helps.
Easier would be to (for the purpose of a test) turn of the heater before turning off the car. That leaves you with plenty of time to activate EV mode at the next start up.

MikkB said:
TBH I'm not worried enough by it to start messing around with heater settings and have no plans to drive around in a freezing cold cabin.
Well, cold starts are when an ICE is most polluting and wearing the most. To me, the whole idea of having a plug-in hybrid would be to not need the ICE for short trips. And now, because it is a plug-in, I need to move it more often than I had to move my previous cars (charging etiquette dictates this). And I end up with more cold starts than I had before (unless I do the needful) :roll: And fixing this would have been SO easy.
 
anko said:
MikkB said:
Yes, I use it but the ICE still starts if its close to freezing outside and no pre-heat. Its been suggested that maybe I have just been too slow to hit the EV button so I'm going to try and be quicker on the trigger to see if that helps.
Easier would be to (for the purpose of a test) turn of the heater before turning off the car. That leaves you with plenty of time to activate EV mode at the next start up.
Fair point and I would like to try this, IF I can remember to turn off the heater first. Cheers.
 
anko said:
In order to run the heater with no ICE, it must be at least 7 deg C outside. Then I must:
- set the heater to 15 deg C before starting the car (which by itself is a challenge, if you haven't done it at the end of the previous trip)
- start the car
- select ECO mode
- set the heater to 15.5 deg C
- monitor power consumption of the heater via MMCS
- every time power consumption is down quite a bit, crank up the heater 0.5 deg C.
- if you go to quickly, the ICE may start after all

When you park the car for five minutes and allow the interior to cool off a bit, the ICE will start when you start the car again. Unless you follow the same procedure again.

What a suppletory description of the only way to use the heater without ICE - can't thank you enough for this!!!

Now whether how does the PHEVBox's ICEheatStop function help this situation? As it claims to stop the ICE usage for the heater, but not ICE usage for the oil pre-heat (which might be a myth - based on your experiences.)
 
mrpea said:
Hello there!

We brought home our new outlander phev yesterday (which was very exciting). The dealer told me not to drive with the heating on, or the engine kicks in (which I've read a few times).

What's the reason for this though? I understand heating is probably pretty harsh on the battery, but if the heating is on, how much does it affect efficiency? When it came on (and I've not driven it many times of course, I've some experimenting to do) it seemed to be driving using the engine, is that right? Have I bought a phev that doesn't require plugging in when you want to be warm as the engine is doing all of the work? I'm very confused!

Help :)

In answer to your question (well, most of it) - it does (probably) still depend on which model of PHEV you have. If it's a brand new one I don't actually know which model is which now, but way back in 2014 when mine was made only the more expensive models had electronic heating. This seems to actually only be an advantage with 'pre-heating' before you use the car - set on the touch screen or a phone app - which again is only avaialbe in higher spec models. I think int' olden days the GX3 and GX4 didn't have it, but the GX4h and GX5h did (I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't know why the dealer would have told you not to drive with the heating on. He's either a masochist and likes that sort of thing, or maybe not a Mitsubishi main dealer, it's February! Yes, the engine will kick in, but then that's how the heating works in order to keep you warm and de-mist the windcreen. God will not judge you if the motor fires up. When it comes to "Have I bought a phev that doesn't require plugging in when you want to be warm as the engine is doing all of the work? I'm very confused!" yes it sounds like you are as I don't really understand what you're asking here. Mind you, it doesn't matter that much which permutations of the available technology you partake of, it's not that crucial or controllable, it's still a car at the end of the day. Make sure you press the 'save' 'charge' and 'eco' buttons now and then 'cos they all do stuff. Although maybe not the 'charge' button if the batteries are already fully charged. Always useful to have somewhere to plug it in too, as this is a pretty crucial feature of the PHEV.

One thing I have noticed with my GX4h - which does have pre-heating - is that if I put the 'power' button on to its 'first' blue light setting without pressing the brake pedal (ie. the position between auxillary red light and full blue light 'you're able to engage drive and it's going to move' mode) and set the heater to +29oC no hot air comes out. So as it's able to 'pre-heat' using only electronic mode (ie. the engine doesn't start but hot air comes out) I'd have thought it would.
 
mrqz said:
Now whether how does the PHEVBox's ICEheatStop function help this situation? As it claims to stop the ICE usage for the heater, but not ICE usage for the oil pre-heat (which might be a myth - based on your experiences.)
From the above, you can see that you can have a gap of about 7 to 8 deg C between requested temperature and actual temperature, before the ICE fires up. ICEheatStop manipulates the signal from the interior temperature sensor (located just behind the steering wheel). It tricks the car in believing that the interior temperature is 13 deg C (or higher when it really is higher). This means that, in theory, you could leave the heater set to 20 deg C at all times, without the ICE starting. Unfortunately, the ICEheatStop function only works when ECO mode is active. And we know ECO mode is not sticky. So, if you leave the heater on and are not quick enough with selecting ECO mode in the morning, the ICE will still kick in. But the good part is that it allows you to use above procedure when it is below 7 deg C. Even when you did not have a change to preheat.
 
NightPHEVer said:
Yes, the engine will kick in, but then that's how the heating works in order to keep you warm and de-mist the windcreen.
Well, it doesn't work that way on my other car. It doesn't fire up the engine when I crank up the heater. Or de-mist the windscreen. The only difference between the two cars is that one is a PEV and the other is a PHEV. It adds an ICE to deal with the range issue. Why is it so strange to expect that a PHEV can behave like a PEV on short distances? It is not that the heater is not capable enough, at least not in our moderate Western Europe climates. I have said this before, but I have been in situations where the heater was warming the cabin all by itself while the ICE was still warming up. Even before the ICE coolant had reached 70 deg C (the minimum temp at which the coolant can be used for warming the cabin) the car decided the heater could do by itself and the ICE was stopped. How is that for logic?
 
NightPHEVer said:
In answer to your question (well, most of it) - it does (probably) still depend on which model of PHEV you have. If it's a brand new one I don't actually know which model is which now, but way back in 2014 when mine was made only the more expensive models had electronic heating. This seems to actually only be an advantage with 'pre-heating' before you use the car - set on the touch screen or a phone app - which again is only avaialbe in higher spec models. I think int' olden days the GX3 and GX4 didn't have it, but the GX4h and GX5h did (I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong).

This is where I was heading, there was GX3 that had no electric heating and many people were disappointed the engine ran a lot!

Later they tried to salvage the situation with a 3+ that just added the electric heater but it was too late, many people had abandoned the car. Of course people with GX4 were fine!

I am not sure about the new models and the 'special editions' Juno's.. My understanding was all newer models had electric heating now as Mitsubishi learnt a big lesson from the GX3 disaster.

There must still be some GX3's out there.

Didn't we work out once the electric heater is about 4kw? as you have 10kwh of battery available its going to use near half your charge in an hour, of course once the car warms the heater won't be on fully so the power consumption will drop, but its a big space inside, takes a lot to keep it warm.
 
BobEngineer said:
.. My understanding was all newer models had electric heating now as Mitsubishi learnt a big lesson from the GX3 disaster.

There must still be some GX3's out there.

Sorry Bob but the no electric heater Gx3h works fine for me. If I (or rather my ladyfriend :oops: ) want heat, then I fire up the ICE. As others have commented the £1500 price difference buys me a lot of petrol. Seems like the "solution" is worse than to your imaginary problem! :lol: :mrgreen:
 
Thanks for all of the responses

As to which model and year...It's a 4h, 2016 (66).

I've finally managed to get the app working so I'm going to try the pre heat tomorrow.

Seems to be averaging about 130mpg at the moment, so perhaps it's not all bad. Although in the summer I can see this being a lot higher as none of the journeys we do are far enough away to use more than may be half a charge.

We love it so far!
 
greendwarf said:
BobEngineer said:
.. My understanding was all newer models had electric heating now as Mitsubishi learnt a big lesson from the GX3 disaster.

There must still be some GX3's out there.

Sorry Bob but the no electric heater Gx3h works fine for me. If I (or rather my ladyfriend :oops: ) want heat, then I fire up the ICE. As others have commented the £1500 price difference buys me a lot of petrol. Seems like the "solution" is worse than to your imaginary problem! :lol: :mrgreen:

I am glad for you, but no pre-heat? no thanks!

It was a disaster because many people took the GX3h as it was just about affordable on the Motobility scheme for the disabled. As they need the car to go everywhere they do a lot of frequent short journeys which would be fine for the PHEV's limited battery range.

They were given the impression they would use virtually no petrol but were horrified to find the engine fire up every time and actually use quite a bit of petrol, many disabled will not want to go without heating either!

I know of many that felt conned and Motobility had to accept back lots of rejected cars after huge arguments, others could not wait to get rid of it. It was in direct response to this they bought out the GX3h+ with electric heater but it was too late. I don't think the car is available on Motobility any more.
 
"Many"? I thought the consensus was the a lot (if not most) PHEVs were bought by company car drivers who probably opted for higher spec Gx4h but may also have had to take the cheaper Gx3h (depending any ceiling in their company's scheme). Either way the numbers of Gx3hs going to Motobilty must have been small - otherwise the second hand market would be flooded with them. I doubt that the Gx3+ was introduced as a direct result.

I think the base Gx3h was more likely the marketing lead - so they could keep the headline price well below £30k and the boast of being the same price as the diesel. However, all marketing tries to offer the Goldilocks choice to steer buyers to the middle option - in this case the basic Gx4h. once the car was an established market leader then the Gx3h's job was done - so hardly a disaster. :lol:
 
greendwarf said:
"Many"? I thought the consensus was the a lot (if not most) PHEVs were bought by company car drivers who probably opted for higher spec Gx4h but may also have had to take the cheaper Gx3h (depending any ceiling in their company's scheme). Either way the numbers of Gx3hs going to Motobilty must have been small - otherwise the second hand market would be flooded with them. I doubt that the Gx3+ was introduced as a direct result.

I think the base Gx3h was more likely the marketing lead - so they could keep the headline price well below £30k and the boast of being the same price as the diesel. However, all marketing tries to offer the Goldilocks choice to steer buyers to the middle option - in this case the basic Gx4h. once the car was an established market leader then the Gx3h's job was done - so hardly a disaster. :lol:


Guys, this gx3...3h, gx4 etc stuff is something I don't get. Looks like only a UK localisation related coding, or...? I never heard of this model numbering in the rest of the world... Mine is MY2014 and the most I could read out of the "type" detail in its documents is "CW0". Even the most accurate VIN decoder I found so far doesn't list anything like gx3h or similar codes.
 
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