Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:35 pm 
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STS134 wrote:
What I do is I simply use Save mode on the freeway, and Normal mode or EV mode around town. It's not an efficient use of battery power to cruise on the freeway, as in addition to causing a very high DoD, it also drains the battery at a rather high C rate http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... the_c_rate which is also hard on the it. Driving at a continuous 65-75 mph consumes about 20-30 kW, which is quite a bit of sustained power draw for a small 12 kWh battery. It also generates a lot of heat (and although we do have a battery cooling system, it's still hard on the battery to discharge it so much so quickly).
It appears to me that you do not fully understand what Save mode is. You must have noticed that even in Save mode the engine turns off regularly?

In Normal mode, there is a hysteresis cycle (engine on / engine off) during which the SoC goes up and down between roughly 30 (the low water mark) and 32% (the high water mark). During the engine off part of the cycle, power consumption is, like you said, about 30 kW and DoD is about 2%. In Save mode, the exact same thing happens. Same power consumption, same DoD. The only difference is that the low water mark is not at roughly 30% but depends on the actual SoC when you selected Save mode.


STS134 wrote:
Meanwhile, the ICE is reasonably efficient at sustained cruise. That's why I got a PHEV. Let the ICE do what it does best (freeway driving), and let the battery do what it does best (around town driving).
An ICE needs a decent relative load in order to be efficient. Just propelling the car does not provide such a load. And we cannot shift to a higher gear in order to increase the relative load. So, instead additional load is created by the generator. In other words, the ICE runs more efficiently when it is not just propelling the car but also charging the battery.

When a high SOC is maintained (above 65% real or 50% on the gauge), the maximum charge current is reduced to protect the battery. The higher the SoC, the lower the maximum charge current. This causes the ICE to drop out of the sweet spot and run less efficient. With a reduced charge current, it will take longer to increase the SoC by 2% (from low to high water mark) so the hysteresis cycle is impacted: the duty cycle (% of time with engine on) will be higher. So, over the same distance travelled, the ICE will have made many more revolutions and you will have spent more fuel overcoming internal resistance of the ICE itself.


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:41 am 
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Woodman411 wrote:
jaapv wrote:
Woefully underpowered? I drive regularly on the German Autobahn, plenty of hills and my average speed is about 150 kph. No lack of power at all. Just keep the charge button down, 120 kW from the electric motors and another 30 from the ICE will keep you going nicely.


I'm sorry, I took it too far. I meant trash panda power :) Autobahn, 150 kph, hills, "no lack of power at all"... Anyone like to back that up? My BMW X1 sdrive28i struggles at 130 kph on hills, and that's signficantly lighter than the Outlander phev. Lack of power is almost universal with online reviews:

https://www.wheels.ca/car-reviews/revie ... ander-phev "sluggish performance"
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest ... -1.3785887 "What’s the crux of the issue? Lackluster performance... highway passing and uphill slogs easily overtasked the drivetrain – and that's with only a pair of people aboard"
http://www.hybridcars.com/2018-mitsubis ... ive-review "ask the vehicle to pass, surge up a hill, or merge with highway traffic, and suddenly you find yourself searching for the afterburner button"
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/20 ... est-review "isn't quick by any means"

Outlander phev has many strengths, but got the impression power isn't one of them.


Definitely the Outlander PHEV is a boring car for German Autobahn ...

Yes .. there are most of the time 120kw of power, sometime a bit more at higher speed ... as well power could be less when ICE is cold or speed is low ...
Still 120kw for 1.8 tons car is not much, especially since it has a massive profile and lot of energy lost at high speed due to air resistance.

On top the PHEV does only 170km/h (restriction by design) which for Autobahn standards can be relative slow

For cross Germany I prefer to use my old BMW 335i tuned with 400HP .. then it makes more interesting to cruise there .. interesting enough .. at 130km/h and above, the BMW consume less fuel then the Outlander (main difference is SUV vs Coupe)
I also had in the past a BMW X1 x18d ... which was relative slow for my feeling (but still a more agile and reactive car compared to my Outlander, even if on paper the BMW X1 was having less power then our PHEV) ... my previous BMW 320d (with a little tune) was quite fast and it was consuming almost nothing and it had only 169HP (with a cheap chip tune to maybe 190HP)

Anyhow ... the Outlander PHEV is a car mainly designed for daily commute .. with the option to tow , make a bit of off road, etc ... so a quite versatile car, with lot of cabin space ... still not the best for take German Autobahns

PS: If you need more fan from an PHEV SUV ... I guess it is needed too look for a Volvo, Porsche or RangeRover ... but ... the cost of these are way more then the Mitsubishi, and I'm not sure they are better then the Outlander in EV mode or in the economy of daily commute ... as far as I know .. the Outlander is the only PHEV with 4x4/AWD in pure EV mode ...

PPS: One of the influence in the speed/acceleration factor ... is the engine noise ... we are used to ear the engine to rev up on standard ICE cars ... in the Outlander when we accelerate "hard" the engine jump immediately at high rpm, and then it does not change the sound .. so psychologically we don't hear the acceleration


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 am 
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elm70 wrote:
.. interesting enough .. at 130km/h and above, the BMW consume less fuel then the Outlander (main difference is SUV vs Coupe)
Coincidentally, 130 km/h is about the speed at which the PHEV can no longer drive in EV mode. So, 130 km/h is about the speed at which the hysteresis cycle is terminated. This means the PHEV is no longer a hybrid vehicle when driving 130 km/h or faster. Charge current is reduced to 0. ICE drops out of sweet spot. Down the drain goes the efficiency .... more or less ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:52 am 
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anko wrote:
STS134 wrote:
What I do is I simply use Save mode on the freeway, and Normal mode or EV mode around town. It's not an efficient use of battery power to cruise on the freeway, as in addition to causing a very high DoD, it also drains the battery at a rather high C rate http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... the_c_rate which is also hard on the it. Driving at a continuous 65-75 mph consumes about 20-30 kW, which is quite a bit of sustained power draw for a small 12 kWh battery. It also generates a lot of heat (and although we do have a battery cooling system, it's still hard on the battery to discharge it so much so quickly).
It appears to me that you do not fully understand what Save mode is. You must have noticed that even in Save mode the engine turns off regularly?

In Normal mode, there is a hysteresis cycle (engine on / engine off) during which the SoC goes up and down between roughly 30 (the low water mark) and 32% (the high water mark). During the engine off part of the cycle, power consumption is, like you said, about 30 kW and DoD is about 2%. In Save mode, the exact same thing happens. Same power consumption, same DoD. The only difference is that the low water mark is not at roughly 30% but depends on the actual SoC when you selected Save mode.


STS134 wrote:
Meanwhile, the ICE is reasonably efficient at sustained cruise. That's why I got a PHEV. Let the ICE do what it does best (freeway driving), and let the battery do what it does best (around town driving).
An ICE needs a decent relative load in order to be efficient. Just propelling the car does not provide such a load. And we cannot shift to a higher gear in order to increase the relative load. So, instead additional load is created by the generator. In other words, the ICE runs more efficiently when it is not just propelling the car but also charging the battery.

When a high SOC is maintained (above 65% real or 50% on the gauge), the maximum charge current is reduced to protect the battery. The higher the SoC, the lower the maximum charge current. This causes the ICE to drop out of the sweet spot and run less efficient. With a reduced charge current, it will take longer to increase the SoC by 2% (from low to high water mark) so the hysteresis cycle is impacted: the duty cycle (% of time with engine on) will be higher. So, over the same distance travelled, the ICE will have made many more revolutions and you will have spent more fuel overcoming internal resistance of the ICE itself.


Yes - I used to drive a Volvo 245TurboR (only a few built, most Turbos were tamed down) that was limited to 250, in the past and a series of Jaguars. That taught me one thing: It is a stupid exercise to drive long distances in that style. You will arrived exhausted from the extreme concentration needed at such speeds and the time gains are marginal. Much better to drive with the flow, in the optimum average speed of 130 (many speed limits nowadays...) to 150, which is the sweet spot for the Outlander. Fortunately many German drivers have twigged to the fact as well, making traffic much smoother.

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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 am 
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jaapv wrote:
Yes - I used to drive a Volvo 245TurboR (only a few built, most Turbos were tamed down) that was limited to 250, in the past and a series of Jaguars. That taught me one thing: It is a stupid exercise to drive long distances in that style. You will arrived exhausted from the extreme concentration needed at such speeds and the time gains are marginal. Much better to drive with the flow, in the optimum average speed of 130 (many speed limits nowadays...) to 150, which is the sweet spot for the Outlander. Fortunately many German drivers have twigged to the fact as well, making traffic much smoother.
Is this the right topic for this response?


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 am 
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Location: Poland
jaapv wrote:

Yes - I used to drive a Volvo 245TurboR (only a few built, most Turbos were tamed down) that was limited to 250, in the past and a series of Jaguars. That taught me one thing: It is a stupid exercise to drive long distances in that style. You will arrived exhausted from the extreme concentration needed at such speeds and the time gains are marginal. Much better to drive with the flow, in the optimum average speed of 130 (many speed limits nowadays...) to 150, which is the sweet spot for the Outlander. Fortunately many German drivers have twigged to the fact as well, making traffic much smoother.


Comfortable speed ... is very subjective.

It is all about traffic, number of lines, and shape of the motorway

But, in general in Germany if there is no speed limit, the road allow to drive at high speed .. which in general is close to 250km/h which is the standard electronic speed limit in most of german cars

In my experience I can gain more then 1h driving at high speed, just a simple math .. driving at average 130km/h vs 200km/h ... 200km take 1h30min in first case, and 1h in second case .. so driving at 200km/h allow to win 30min time for each hour .. that is not little

Anyhow ... my comfort speed with BMW 320d, BMW 335i and Fiat Coupe LE (my 3 fast cars which I drove in Germany) ... is between 180km/h and 220km/h .. 180km/h is very relaxing speed .. 220km/h is very fine with low traffic ... but .. getting close to 250km/h is more demanding ... unless the motorway is straight and empty from traffic ...

Clearly weather condition need to be good (if not perfect)

PS: Fuel consumption at 200km/h it is not that bad either on the fast cars I have/had .. around 11L/100km (probably the 320d was even 10L or less)

PPS: The bigger stress factor on driving fast ... is to be careful on not missing any speed limit on the motorway ... I have seen places in Germany that from unlimited, it was going down to 80km/h only for few hundreds meters (sometime without any logical reason) ... it could be a challenge to explain to the police why car was flying at 220km/h when speed limit was 120 or 80km/h


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:40 am 
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anko wrote:
Is this the right topic for this response?


Why not 8-) :!: 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:44 am 
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elm70 wrote:
anko wrote:
Is this the right topic for this response?


Why not 8-) :!: 8-)
I guess for you any topic is suitable to discuss excessive speed :lol: But seriously, I don't see what in this topic may have triggered Jaapvs response.


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 am 
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anko wrote:
elm70 wrote:
.. interesting enough .. at 130km/h and above, the BMW consume less fuel then the Outlander (main difference is SUV vs Coupe)
Coincidentally, 130 km/h is about the speed at which the PHEV can no longer drive in EV mode. So, 130 km/h is about the speed at which the hysteresis cycle is terminated. This means the PHEV is no longer a hybrid vehicle when driving 130 km/h or faster. Charge current is reduced to 0. ICE drops out of sweet spot. Down the drain goes the efficiency .... more or less ;-)


Not really at any speed it is possible to press the CHARGE button ... and some extra load is added to the ICE , so in theory the ICE is running more efficiently .. and the main battery get charged while driving in 100% ICE mode.

Clearly it is needed to have an ending part of the trip at a speed usable in pure EV mode .. else it is a waste to produce electricity from fuel instead of using electricity from the network .


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 Post subject: Re: can you force no drive-battery charging while driving?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:27 am 
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anko wrote:
jaapv wrote:
Yes - I used to drive a Volvo 245TurboR (only a few built, most Turbos were tamed down) that was limited to 250, in the past and a series of Jaguars. That taught me one thing: It is a stupid exercise to drive long distances in that style. You will arrived exhausted from the extreme concentration needed at such speeds and the time gains are marginal. Much better to drive with the flow, in the optimum average speed of 130 (many speed limits nowadays...) to 150, which is the sweet spot for the Outlander. Fortunately many German drivers have twigged to the fact as well, making traffic much smoother.
Is this the right topic for this response?

Why not? it is about efficiency, charging and speed demand, isn't it?

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