Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:41 am 
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Location: Netherlands
Quite. Although by charging more frequently - after all, the car will try and maintain a higher battery charge- one might provoke some losses.

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:11 am 
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I'd feel I was missing out on "free" coasting opportunities but have used this technique myself in rural Ireland to be able to switch to EV to reduce local pollution in towns & villages when driving VERY slowly. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Saratoga, CA
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas. It also consumed about 8 bars on the battery (around 4.4 kWh) over that same distance, which was all during short traffic jams as well as some very small amount of driving I did off the freeway, while going to restrooms and restaurants near the exits, when I turned off Save mode. Neglecting the battery power, this equates to 23.4 mpg. If we subtract off around 8-12 miles I did in traffic jams and the small amount of off freeway driving for the 4.4 kWh, we get a long range efficiency of approximately 22.7 mpg. Maximum speed reached on the trip was approximately 105 mph (169 km/h) with long sections of averaging over 85 mph (136 km/h). This thing really needs a bigger gas tank, like 13-14 gallons when not topped off and 16 or so gallons when topped off. ~300 miles range before the light comes on isn't that great, but I guess that's what the tradeoff is for having 25-28 miles of EV range. Trades off tank space for batteries.


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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3404
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
STS134 wrote:
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas. It also consumed about 8 bars on the battery (around 4.4 kWh) over that same distance, which was all during short traffic jams as well as some very small amount of driving I did off the freeway, while going to restrooms and restaurants near the exits, when I turned off Save mode. Neglecting the battery power, this equates to 23.4 mpg. If we subtract off around 8-12 miles I did in traffic jams and the small amount of off freeway driving for the 4.4 kWh, we get a long range efficiency of approximately 22.7 mpg. Maximum speed reached on the trip was approximately 105 mph (169 km/h) with long sections of averaging over 85 mph (136 km/h). This thing really needs a bigger gas tank, like 13-14 gallons when not topped off and 16 or so gallons when topped off. ~300 miles range before the light comes on isn't that great, but I guess that's what the tradeoff is for having 25-28 miles of EV range. Trades off tank space for batteries.
I think the trade off here is speed for range :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:09 pm
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Location: Glasgow
STS134 wrote:
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas.

Are you sure? That works out at about 50 litres of petrol (assuming we're talking US gallons), and the tank is only supposed to be 45 litres...the warning light also comes on very early (in my early UK version anyway) - if I fill mine as soon as the light comes on it takes 35 litres or so. If I run it down till the miles remaining reads ----, then it will take 40 litres....

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Saratoga, CA
jdsx wrote:
STS134 wrote:
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas.

Are you sure? That works out at about 50 litres of petrol (assuming we're talking US gallons), and the tank is only supposed to be 45 litres...the warning light also comes on very early (in my early UK version anyway) - if I fill mine as soon as the light comes on it takes 35 litres or so. If I run it down till the miles remaining reads ----, then it will take 40 litres....


Yes, US gallons. I take it you're never topped off your tank? By "top off" I mean put gasoline in until there is liquid sitting just below the filler cap -- you should be able to see the gas sitting in the filler cap area and that little hole that the nozzle goes into should be under the liquid level. You can usually get about 2.5-3.5 additional US gallons in there after the pump automatically clicks off, but it takes probably 100-200% as long as filling the tank from empty until the point it automatically stops. Easiest way to do this is to hold the nozzle so that you can see the gas come out and aim the gas down the hole where the nozzle would normally be, and watch the liquid level. If your pump has a vapor recovery nozzle, you will have to hold back the vapor recovery mechanism to get the pump to dispense fuel when it's not fully inserted. As the tank fills, it will drain slower and slower but you'll still be able to get gas in until it does not drain down at all. I fill until the point where the liquid level falls by less than 1cm/minute. It just takes a long time and it's rather annoying, but less annoying than having to stop again for fuel so soon.

Here's the thing: I got around 305 miles when I topped off. If I had not topped off, I would have only gotten around 225-250 miles on a tank, which is absolutely awful. So yeah, the Outlander needs a bigger fuel tank.


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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:20 am
Posts: 4
Generally my trips are under 50 miles so much of the journey is fuelled by electricity but I have had long journeys. At 70 mph on petrol only I get about 35 mpg which is fine for a big SUV.

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:09 pm
Posts: 350
Location: Glasgow
STS134 wrote:
jdsx wrote:
STS134 wrote:
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas.

Are you sure? That works out at about 50 litres of petrol (assuming we're talking US gallons), and the tank is only supposed to be 45 litres...the warning light also comes on very early (in my early UK version anyway) - if I fill mine as soon as the light comes on it takes 35 litres or so. If I run it down till the miles remaining reads ----, then it will take 40 litres....


Yes, US gallons. I take it you're never topped off your tank? By "top off" I mean put gasoline in until there is liquid sitting just below the filler cap -- you should be able to see the gas sitting in the filler cap area and that little hole that the nozzle goes into should be under the liquid level. You can usually get about 2.5-3.5 additional US gallons in there after the pump automatically clicks off, but it takes probably 100-200% as long as filling the tank from empty until the point it automatically stops. Easiest way to do this is to hold the nozzle so that you can see the gas come out and aim the gas down the hole where the nozzle would normally be, and watch the liquid level. If your pump has a vapor recovery nozzle, you will have to hold back the vapor recovery mechanism to get the pump to dispense fuel when it's not fully inserted. As the tank fills, it will drain slower and slower but you'll still be able to get gas in until it does not drain down at all. I fill until the point where the liquid level falls by less than 1cm/minute. It just takes a long time and it's rather annoying, but less annoying than having to stop again for fuel so soon.

Here's the thing: I got around 305 miles when I topped off. If I had not topped off, I would have only gotten around 225-250 miles on a tank, which is absolutely awful. So yeah, the Outlander needs a bigger fuel tank.


With respect, though, if I just fill up until the pump clicks off, and then do the same when I refill, that is identical to filling like you do - i.e. you are replicating the same situation....allowing for maybe a very small difference in when the pump shuts off which can't be more than 0.2 litre or so... I can't believe you got 50 litres in on that basis, if the tank is only 45 litres! I've had a look at many hundreds, if not thousands, of refuels on fuelly.com, and it is extremely rare to find any single refuel of more than 40 litres... even people on here who have run the tank down till it shuts off and then refuelled have only put (IIRC) 43-44 litres in....

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 7:01 am
Posts: 62
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
STS134 wrote:
Just got back from a trip. I topped off the tank to the brim, then drove 314.1 miles, until the warning light came on, then topped it off to the brim again. Car took 13.41 gallons of gas. It also consumed about 8 bars on the battery (around 4.4 kWh) over that same distance, which was all during short traffic jams as well as some very small amount of driving I did off the freeway, while going to restrooms and restaurants near the exits, when I turned off Save mode. Neglecting the battery power, this equates to 23.4 mpg. If we subtract off around 8-12 miles I did in traffic jams and the small amount of off freeway driving for the 4.4 kWh, we get a long range efficiency of approximately 22.7 mpg. Maximum speed reached on the trip was approximately 105 mph (169 km/h) with long sections of averaging over 85 mph (136 km/h). This thing really needs a bigger gas tank, like 13-14 gallons when not topped off and 16 or so gallons when topped off. ~300 miles range before the light comes on isn't that great, but I guess that's what the tradeoff is for having 25-28 miles of EV range. Trades off tank space for batteries.


I am getting the similar mpg (23-24). Almost 280 miles, mostly highway at 80-85 mph, with 4 people. I didn’t use “save”. Mostly “Charge on” in parallel mode and “charge off” when going downhill. Sometimes, going downhill “charge off”, I would need to go B2 just to turn off the engine, even I just want to coast and maintain the speed. At this kind of speed, there is not much torque left free to charge the batt. I may just push “save” next time...
Sooner or later, I will top off the PHEV and drive North to San Jose, see if I can go 300+ miles non stop, by myself.

Tai

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 Post subject: Re: Long Distance MPG
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Saratoga, CA
Tai626 wrote:
I am getting the similar mpg (23-24). Almost 280 miles, mostly highway at 80-85 mph, with 4 people. I didn’t use “save”. Mostly “Charge on” in parallel mode and “charge off” when going downhill. Sometimes, going downhill “charge off”, I would need to go B2 just to turn off the engine, even I just want to coast and maintain the speed. At this kind of speed, there is not much torque left free to charge the batt. I may just push “save” next time...
Sooner or later, I will top off the PHEV and drive North to San Jose, see if I can go 300+ miles non stop, by myself.

Tai


You'll almost certainly be able to do it. There were still 2 bars left on my fuel gauge, and an indicated ICE range of around 30-40 miles, when I refilled. Had I run the tank down to the point where the computer auto cancels Save mode and starts using battery, I could have gone around 335-350 miles or so.

BTW, this (topping off the tank with an extra 2-3 gallons) is not unique to the Outlander. Nearly every single car I have tried this on I've been able to get an extra 2-3 gallons into the tank. This is extremely important on long trips where you just don't want to stop for fuel, as well as (in my opinion) every day driving, where an extra 2-3 gallons can mean another 2-5 days before having to visit the station again. They just don't count that extra "usable" space as capacity in the tank because, well, you're not "supposed" to top off the tank, and many people wouldn't have the patience to actually use it. It literally requires about 2-3 minutes of watching fuel go into the spout and carefully watching the level to make sure it doesn't overflow, sometimes turning the pump ON and OFF repeatedly to keep the fuel from overflowing. You'll quickly learn that most of the older style pumps have a mechanical valve and the pump runs continuously. You can thus control the rate of fuel flow by how hard you squeeze the lever. Those are absolutely great. The newer style pumps have electrical valves, and are binary in operation (either ON or OFF and nothing in between). Those are annoying as hell. You literally have to pull the lever, wait until the fuel is just about to overflow, then release it, switching off the pump and allowing it to drain down, and then you repeat until it reaches the top. The closer it gets to the top, the shorter you pull the lever each time, otherwise, it overflows. In California of course, we also have those pesky vapor recovery nozzles, which you have to hold back (with one hand) while the other controls the lever. Makes my hands quite tired by the end of the process.

I took a look underneath the car. It seems the issue with the gas tank size is that it's squeezed between the batteries (in front) and the rear motor (to the rear) and there just wasn't enough space for a bigger tank. The Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid, which was the other PHEV I was considering to buy, has a different design, it looks like this:
ICE <-------> Motor/Generator <--------> Transmission <--------> Transfer Case <----------> Wheels

The motor (yes that is singular) is up front. That's why that thing can have a > 20 gallon tank, and has over 500 miles of range. The downsides? Well, for one thing, there's only one motor/generator, so it can't charge the battery and use the motors to drive the car at the same time. And more importantly, the motor/generator is UPSTREAM of the transmission AND the transfer case, which means any power that comes from the motor suffers from gearbox and transfer case losses. Hence why it only gets around 14 miles of pure EV range on a 10.8 kWh battery while the Outlander gets 22-25 miles on a 12 kWh battery. At only 14 miles of pure EV range, you've really got to wonder what the point is of having a PHEV at all (maybe just so you can park in EV charging spaces?). Motors don't really NEED to have their gearing ratios varied by a transmission and it's always better to put them as close to the wheels as possible which is why every pure EV I can think of is direct drive. I have to wonder why Porsche did not put two motors downstream of the transfer case between the differentials and the wheels, and a third motor/generator which starts the ICE and charges the batteries, which would have shrunk its gas tank a bit but given it a much better pure EV range. I suspect that there's probably a performance-related reason why it was done this way (probably extra weight from all of the motors or something like that).


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