ICE running unnecessarily?

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@HHL Yes, only 200W, but better than nothing :) And provides heating immediately, unlike the ICE...

Drove 40 km yesterday with only steering wheel heat and front seats on max, not too cold to be honest, with -15 outside temp. 0 emissions the entire trip :)

Setting the inside temp to anything above 15 degress (including 15,5) starts the ICE at these outside temps. Then it is unpredictable how it behaves, starts, stops etc, as there are too many unknown parameters to take into consideration...

A funny thing is that sometimes the ICE is fired but it does not increase in rpm when pushing the gas pedal, it only keeps the engine warm at constant low rpm, but mostly it sounds like it directly increases the rpms when I accelerate, resembling a normal gas driven car (very frustrating). That's also very strange, if the ICE had to be powered on to provide heating then it should behave independently of how I drive and instead focusing on providing enough heat with as low power consumption as possible when there is enough battery, instead it creates and pumps (unnedded) electricity to the battery when accelerating which would be understandable if the battery was low and needed more power directly when accelerating, which is not the case.

Would be interesting to speak with the engineers at Mitsu... :)
 
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.
 
anko said:
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.

You've said this before - and I'm not in a position to disagree with you - but it does sound like a strange design decision if it is as black and white as you paint it! If it has started the engine to provide heat and there is capacity in the battery to accept charge, why not run the engine closer to maximum efficiency and actually get some charge into it?
 
@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels..., no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...
 
iggys76 said:
@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels..., no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...

The orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels on the monitor indicates the mechanical drive to the wheels in parallel mode and can only be present with the car doing a moderate speed - so you will not see it under the circumstances you are describing. I guess the rationale for what you are seeing is that the car has decided to run the engine to provide heat because of the ambient temperature and then decides that it might as well also use the engine to move the car, thus saving your battery charge for later when it is up to temperature. Whether or not you agree with that strategy is a different question.
 
iggys76 said:
@anko When When I look at the monitors - and I do it continuously :) - it looks like the ICE is feeding the battery that is then powering the wheels...
As far as I know, you cannot charge and discharge a battery at the same time. So, when you see what you see (two blue arrows), it can mean one of three things:

- The generator is powering the E-motors
- The generator is powering the E-motors and some surplus energy is going to the battery
- The generator is powering the E-motors and some power shortage is covered for by the battery

but it cannot mean:

- The generator is charging the battery and the battery is powering the wheels.

iggys76 said:
, no orange arrow from the ICE to the wheels, but nontheless the engine behaves like it's powering the wheels as the rpms increase when I push the gas and the speed increases, pretty much like a conventional car. Very strange. My explanation was that it provides more electricity to the battery when needed even if there is plenty in the battery (so again bad algorithms in that case) but it doesn't make a lot of sense...
The orange arrow is only visible in parallel hybrid mode. In this mode, the RPMs are linear with vehicle speed. You will notice that under these conditions (engine started just because of heating) parallel mode will not be engaged, not even when you go over 40 MPH.

In serial hybrid drive (engine drives generator, generator provides power to the wheels) the engine RPMs are to a large extend independent of vehicle speed, regardless whether battery recharging is taking place.
 
maby said:
anko said:
See my earlier comment. I think the engine is not recharging the battery but only providing electricity to drive the car. This would explain why it does not rev when you just push the gas pedal, but does when you are actually accelerating.

You've said this before - and I'm not in a position to disagree with you - but it does sound like a strange design decision if it is as black and white as you paint it! If it has started the engine to provide heat and there is capacity in the battery to accept charge, why not run the engine closer to maximum efficiency and actually get some charge into it?
That is exactly what I hoped for. And also that it engages in parallel mode over 40 MPH. But it doesn't do that either.
 
Anko,
What about a convential car? Ice turns alternator charging battery whilst battery feeds lights, heater fan ,air con etc? Or am I being too simplistic?
Mine often runs with arrow into battery & arrow out to wheels.
 
@anko Ok, but very confusing, the arrows and the icons clearly show the ICE powering a battery that is then powering the wheels... There should be a blue arrow (electricity) from the ICE to the wheels in this case, but there is not. So the battery icon is probably the generator.

Also, in what you wrote is serial hybrid drive (engine drives generator, generator provides power to the wheels) my engine does respond to the gas pedal/speed, the more i push the higher rpms (not always but mostly), I guess that's because the engine needs to produce more power to power the wheels.
 
I'm pretty sure it is not a two-port battery, so there's no question of the engine pushing power into the battery and the motors drawing power from it simultaneously. I think the relationship is more a case of float charging - the engine produces power which is supplied to the controller which, primarily drives the motors and pushes any spare into the battery. This will slowly increase the level of charge to the point where the controller decides to shut the engine down for a while and run in EV mode till the charge has been run down a bit. The graphic does not make this totally clear.
 
See it as a three-way junction, where three roads come together. One road leeds to the generator, one road leeds to the motors and one leeds to the battery. On each road, power can flow in only one direction at any given moment in time:

- From the generator to the junction, for example when:
-- the engine runs in serial hybrid mode and all power is converted into electricity by the generator
-- the engine runs in parallel hybrid mode and surplus power is converted to electricity by the generator
- From the junction to the generator, for example when:
-- the engine is being started up by the generator
-- the engine is idling in parallel mode and electricity is fed into the generator to eliminate E-drag in the generator

- From the battery to the junction, for example when:
-- driving in pure EV mode
-- the engine is being started by the generator
-- when coasting in EV mode, to eliminate E-drag in both E-motors
-- when coasting in serial or parallel hybrid mode, to eliminate E-drag in generator and both E-motors
- From the junction to the battery, for example when:
-- the battery is being recharged in Save or Charge mode
-- regen braking produces electrical power

- From the wheels to the junction, when:
-- regen braking produces electrical power
- From the junction to the wheels, for example when:
-- driving in EV or serial hybrid mode
-- driving in parallel hybrid mode with 4WD Lock engaged (rear wheels)
-- driving in parallel hybrid mode, when a very little power is applied to the rear wheels in order to maintain a 4WD characteristic

Unfortunately, the graphics do not show the junction as such. Only the path from engine (generator) to battery and the path from battery to wheels. Both paths lead across the junction. A graphic showing this junction with three paths would be so much nicer and clearer.

Picture this: while towing a caravan in parallel mode hit 4WD Lock. When this happens you will see this:
- Orange arrow engine to wheels
- Blue arrow engine to battery
- Blue arrow battery to wheels

It suggests the battery is being recharged. But this is totally not the case. In reality, a little amount of energy flows from the generator to the rear motor and a lot of energy flows from the battery to the same rear motor. The battery is being drained rapidly.

To make matters a little bit more complex, it is not exactly a 3-way junction, but more a 6 or 7-way junction (at least), with roads leading from the junction to:
- Battery
- Rear motor
- Front motor
- Generator
- Electric heater
- On Board Charger
- Rapid Charge Port

Where the junction is reality is connected to the generator and front motor via the same single road which splits near the end.

BTW: Kirchhoff laws say that the sum of currents on all roads connected to the junction (taking into account direction) must be 0.
 
anko said:
See it as a three-way junction, where three roads come together. One road leeds to the generator, one road leeds to the motors and one leeds to the battery. On each road, power can flow in only one direction at any given moment in time:

- From the generator to the junction, for example when:
-- the engine runs in serial hybrid mode and all power is converted into electricity by the generator
-- the engine runs in parallel hybrid mode and surplus power is converted to electricity by the generator
- From the junction to the generator, for example when:
-- the engine is being started up by the generator
-- the engine is idling in parallel mode and electricity is fed into the generator to eliminate E-drag in the generator

- From the battery to the junction, for example when:
-- driving in pure EV mode
-- the engine is being started by the generator
-- when coasting in EV mode, to eliminate E-drag in both E-motors
-- when coasting in serial or parallel hybrid mode, to eliminate E-drag in generator and both E-motors
- From the junction to the battery, for example when:
-- the battery is being recharged in Save or Charge mode
-- regen braking produces electrical power

- From the wheels to the junction, when:
-- regen braking produces electrical power
- From the junction to the wheels, for example when:
-- driving in EV or serial hybrid mode
-- driving in parallel hybrid mode with 4WD Lock engaged (rear wheels)
-- driving in parallel hybrid mode, when a very little power is applied to the rear wheels in order to maintain a 4WD characteristic

Unfortunately, the graphics do not show the junction as such. Only the path from engine (generator) to battery and the path from battery to wheels. Both paths lead across the junction. A graphic showing this junction with three paths would be so much nicer and clearer.

Picture this: while towing a caravan in parallel mode hit 4WD Lock. When this happens you will see this:
- Orange arrow engine to wheels
- Blue arrow engine to battery
- Blue arrow battery to wheels

It suggests the battery is being recharged. But this is totally not the case. In reality, a little amount of energy flows from the generator to the rear motor and a lot of energy flows from the battery to the same rear motor. The battery is being drained rapidly.

To make matters a little bit more complex, it is not exactly a 3-way junction, but more a 6 or 7-way junction (at least), with roads leading from the junction to:
- Battery
- Rear motor
- Front motor
- Generator
- Electric heater
- On Board Charger
- Rapid Charge Port

Where the junction is reality is connected to the generator and front motor via the same single road which splits near the end.

BTW: Kirchhoff laws say that the sum of currents on all roads connected to the junction (taking into account direction) must be 0.

Very nice explanation Anko :)
 
Back to the original topic, The MMC design team have probably implemented some hard rules into the heating with ICE algorithm. It may be as simple as when heating is requested, and temp is cold, run ICE, but with minimum amount of petrol consumption, even when driving. This would possibly explain the apparent lack of surplus power for possible battery recharging and not running the ICE at the most efficient power level.
 
Makes sense. Because, when the ice is started for heating, if means there is still sufficient SOC and it looks as if the design team (like myself) strives for maintaining an as low as possible SOC. Probably a smart decision. But then, why not use the SOC for heating instead of the ICE?
 
iggys76 said:
A funny thing is that sometimes the ICE is fired but it does not increase in rpm when pushing the gas pedal, it only keeps the engine warm at constant low rpm, but mostly it sounds like it directly increases the rpms when I accelerate, resembling a normal gas driven car (very frustrating).

This (and anko's reply) don't make sense - unless you mean when not in Drive?

If moving, how can it not be acceleration when you push the gas pedal? Did you mean that sometimes when accelerating the ICE rpms increase and sometimes they don't? If so, surely this is the same as normal and depends on the rate of acceleration, i.e. the ICE will start to add power for quick getaways to assist the battery.
 
greendwarf said:
iggys76 said:
A funny thing is that sometimes the ICE is fired but it does not increase in rpm when pushing the gas pedal, it only keeps the engine warm at constant low rpm, but mostly it sounds like it directly increases the rpms when I accelerate, resembling a normal gas driven car (very frustrating).

This (and anko's reply) don't make sense - unless you mean when not in Drive?
This is what I assumed.
 
anko said:
greendwarf said:
iggys76 said:
A funny thing is that sometimes the ICE is fired but it does not increase in rpm when pushing the gas pedal, it only keeps the engine warm at constant low rpm, but mostly it sounds like it directly increases the rpms when I accelerate, resembling a normal gas driven car (very frustrating).

This (and anko's reply) don't make sense - unless you mean when not in Drive?
This is what I assumed.

I have had a situation twice, where the ICE starts for heating, and before I engage drive, I can rev the engine as you can in a petrol car with the car stationary. I have not been able to replicate it deliberately, so it might just happen at a certain SOC. I can't even work out why it would want to do that? :(
 
I think I mentioned this before: there is a difference between an 'idling' engine in Charge mode (car decides) and an engine 'idling' after being started up by a mechanic for maintenance / diagnostic purposes (throttle decides). I think an engine started up for heating behaves like the second.
 
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