Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 503
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
Hi all,

I have been away for awhile (nearly a year) but have dropped back to mainly fix up the Technical graphs and images downloads over in the Technical Discussions section.
But I have noticed there is quite a bit of chatter in some sections of this forum about drive battery degradation. This I would like to discuss with you.

Now I started a thread nearly a year ago over in the technical discussions titled "Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?" see viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2937 and I come back
here and find it now over 16 pages long. :o That in itself is not a problem as I think we should discuss these issues as that what these forums are for.

But now I see forum members actively bringing up drive battery degradation when a new member turns up as though to warn them that it is a big problem
for the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. This I totally refute.

Now lets get one thing clear. All batteries degrade over time even Tesla's or BMW. Just like everything else degrades over time including ourselves. Thats life.
But unless you have a Tesla or any other EV and had the right monitoring software you cannot claim that the PHEV's drive battery is worse than the others.

Now as an aside to hopefully put some people's minds at ease I am heading towards 4 years of ownership of my PHEV and have regularly done actual driving tests
to see whether I can measure an actual decrease in the actual range.

The answer is maybe. The last test I did I went from around the 51, 52kms down to 48kms. But I also got pulled over by the police twice (big alcohol and drug testing weekend)
that probably skewed the result. But even if it is right our family never uses the full battery quantity in everyday use. So it is not a deal breaker.

So the point is if we did not have the monitoring software that shows up this "degradation" most of us would not notice it in our everyday use and when we do if we still
own our PHEVs there will be options available to renew our drive batteries.

So please lets take a step back and chill about this please. I would even suggest turning off your OBDT-II software and putting on some good music and enjoy the bloody
car. After all it is a marvellous bit of kit.

But that is just my opinion. 8-) :)

Regards Trex.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 234
Location: Dee Why
Couldn't agree more!
They way I use it, it would not matter that much if the battery was down to half its original capacity. Most of my daily drives are well less than 50km and it does them as well as it did the day I bought it. Mine is also a 2014 built. Some of the other PHEVs out there actually have a smaller battery to start with and I am sure they are just a viable as the Outlander as a bridge between ICE and fully EV cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2722
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
Haha, Trex. Welcome back. We (or at least I) have missed you, here. In general I agree with you. I also do not think it is a common problem. But there might be a few exceptions.
Trex wrote:
So please lets take a step back and chill about this please. I would even suggest turning off your OBDT-II software and putting on some good music and enjoy the bloody car.
That would be nice if that worked. But with range falling from close to 40 km to 25 km at best in a very mild winter (very same driving style and all), it is very hard not to notice the shape my car is in.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2722
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
HHL wrote:
They way I use it, it would not matter that much if the battery was down to half its original capacity. Most of my daily drives are well less than 50km and it does them as well as it did the day I bought it.
With half the capacityIt left your daily drives need to be well below 25. But it is not just about range. With half the battery capacity left, the ICE will be triggered quicker. My guess would be that at 50% this will happen with the power needle in about the 10 o'clock position. I see this happening with mine. Even my wife (who is hardly PHEV aware) notices it when she drives.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2722
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
FYI: I am not saying there is a general problem at all. But based on my experience with my car, I would not buy a used one without battery health report.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 234
Location: Dee Why
anko wrote:
FYI: I am not saying there is a general problem at all. But based on my experience with my car, I would not buy a used one without battery health report.


Hi,

Actually, most of my drives are less than 25km.......
So half the capacity would still do it, however, a real problem would be if the loss was caused by one or more failing cells, rather than a uniform degradation of the whole pack.
I could imagine that would quickly render the battery unusable.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 2722
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
HHL wrote:
Actually, most of my drives are less than 25km.......
So half the capacity would still do it, ...
Like I said, it is not just about available energy, but also about available power. I hope you never find out ;-)
HHL wrote:
.., a real problem would be if the loss was caused by one or more failing cells, rather than a uniform degradation of the whole pack.
I could imagine that would quickly render the battery unusable.
I would prefer that. As it would be a warranty case, where degradation (to a certain extend) may not be.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 614
Location: Poland
anko wrote:
Like I said, it is not just about available energy, but also about available power. I hope you never find out ;-)


I guess you notice this since you have the Vtech box , and you can easily try to get 100% of EV power.

Without Vtech box ... I think most of our feet got calibrated to achieve only 90% of EV power

Anyhow ... power and battery degradation ... are two different aspects

One thing is losing capacity ..
A different thing is to have a battery with higher internal resistance

The first impact the EV range all the time
The second, does impact max power. Somehow also EV range is reduced when driving style is more "aggressive" , since high IR cause more energy waste at high currents

Now ... my car which is as old as your .. possibly has same high resistance as yours ... I did monitor voltage to drop even below to 3.5v per cell when using around 90% of EV power and low SOC ... still no ICE did kick in ... but ... possibly my car has an older firmware then yours , since here in Poland I did not got any proper servicing ... anyhow .. since my car allow to still use battery with voltage dropping below 3.5v .. I believe this high power request is not a concern for my car ... maybe also on other PHEV with old firmware ...


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 503
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
HHL wrote:
Couldn't agree more!
They way I use it, it would not matter that much if the battery was down to half its original capacity. Most of my daily drives are well less than 50km and it does them as well as it did the day I bought it. Mine is also a 2014 built. Some of the other PHEVs out there actually have a smaller battery to start with and I am sure they are just a viable as the Outlander as a bridge between ICE and fully EV cars.


Hey HHL,
Happy new year. Good to see some aussies still on the forum.

Yes, we with our usage could let it drop quite a bit but if someone came up with a drop in replacement that took it up to at least 70-75kms range I would be very tempted to give it a go especially if the price was reasonable.

But it would have to fit the existing battery box ie I am not going to let extra batteries intrude into the luggage area.

Regards Trex.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation. It just is not a problem IMHO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 503
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
anko wrote:
Haha, Trex. Welcome back. We (or at least I) have missed you, here.


Hey anko,
Thanks for that. :oops: But I think you may be the exception to that missing me bit. :lol: But as we say over here "how are they hanging?". ;)

anko wrote:
I also do not think it is a common problem. But there might be a few exceptions.


Yes, as I already said about you missing me you are definitely the exception. :mrgreen:

But as I said to you before over in the other thread it is time to start kicking butt with your dealer to start getting answers to your issue. Or start dealing direct with Mitsubishi Netherlands to cut out the middleman which is what I would probably do.

As a engineer myself if I was MMC Japan I would be looking forward to pulling your battery out and diagnosing the problem and seeing if a lot of towing with the PHEV is causing your issue and then get on with battery supplier and see if we can fix it. A bit of a firmware upgrade for the petrol motor (to keep the drive battery charged up while towing and giving us a towing mode) may be all that is required. I would also not try to hide from them the fact that you tow a lot with the PHEV unless you are going over the rated specs.

But I would not go in with a threatening attitude right from the start with Mitsubishi Netherlands ie threatening them with your consumer protection laws or even the the press. That could come later (and I would do it through a lawyer) if you cannot get some satisfaction.

From the little bit I know about lithium batteries and other batteries in general I would not be surprised if you have at least 1 bad cell (out of the 80) which can be an issue with series connections. I hope they tell you what was wrong so you will hopefully tell us.

Or they may just unlock the LEV 50 cell which I predicted (april 2015) may hiding under LEV 40 label if it just degradation and pump it back up. :D

Regards Trex.


Last edited by Trex on Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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