Do not be scared of using that charge button.

anko said:

greendwarf said:

when using the ICE for heating, the car also uses power to drive the car (presumably to increase the load and efficiency). Under these circumstances SOC is maintained

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In this case, "maintained" is really "maintained at a set level", rather than "maintained between at a set level and a percent or 2 above that set level". Maybe better to say "left alone" as "maintained" suggests active involvement.

.

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Perhaps I should have said "unused", as it seems to be merely that when running the ICE for heating,the battery is not called upon to provide drive power, unless the ICE stops. However, SOC can rise if there is Regen available, unlike in Save. But if I admit this is clearer to see in the Gx3h as I don't have the "benefit" of using the battery for heating. :lol:

anko said:

Maybe I should have written:

There are only three exceptions:

- when the engine is stated, not because of low battery, but because of heating demand
- when the engine is stated, not because of low battery, but because of speeds over the maximum EV speed (approx 125 km/h)
- when the engine is started because the battery is empty and the petrol tank is very close to being empty

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4 - when engine is started "to maintain fuel system" when you haven't put enough fuel in the last 3 months. :roll:

greendwarf said:

Perhaps I should have said "unused", as it seems to be merely that when running the ICE for heating,the battery is not called upon to provide drive power, unless the ICE stops. However, SOC can rise if there is Regen available, unlike in Save. But if I admit this is clearer to see in the Gx3h as I don't have the "benefit" of using the battery for heating. :lol:

Click to expand...

Agreed. As a matter of fact, charge can rise as well as drop drop in Save. In Charge mode, obviously it can rise, but also it can drop below the low water mark.

Long descents will increase SOC, even in Save mode. Long climbs (or other forms of prolonged heavy demand) will decrease SOC. At the end of this, there are two options:
- switch from parallel mode (provided this is what you were in) to serial mode, allowing the car to produce more power
- reduced power output (turtle mode)

(I know you know this, but maybe not everybody does)

greendwarf said:

4 - when engine is started "to maintain fuel system" when you haven't put enough fuel in the last 3 months. :roll:

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Agreed!

Daff said:

Trex said:

You need to get your head around the fact that Mitsubishi and Toyota etc have worked out that the extra fuel consumption to make electricity and put the bloody inefficent petrol motor in its most efficient "zone"

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The poster was asking whether using Charge when the motor is running anyway in parallel mode is free energy. Clearly not, it's adding a significant load to the engine. How many kW does the onboard generator run at? And the thing about running in the most efficient zone is not true in parallel mode. The engine revs are determined strictly by the road speed because of the fixed gearing.

Steve

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Hi Again Steve,

No I do not think the poster was asking any such thing about "free" energy. Lets look at what was written.

generaltso said:

If you’re cruising on the highway, and the ice is running for parallel hybrid mode anyway, does it use any more fuel to hit the charge button and let the battery charge while you’re cruising? Or is the ice already sending any extra power to the battery anyway at that point so the charge button doesn’t matter?

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I think he was talking about the rate of fuel consumption of the petrol motor when it is running which is exactly the same rate as pressing the charge button in most circumstances.

Of cause if he has the Charge button pressed and runs the petrol motor longer than Mitsubishi's normal programming it will use more fuel BUT he will also travel in EV mode longer when he hits the Charge button again and turns off charge mode. It is that longer EV that makes a difference to my fuel consumption figures in a positive way.

Like I said in the first post of this thread. This side of hybrids is the hardest thing to get our heads around. If you cannot get it yet you will just have to trust Mitsubishi and Toyota etc know what they are doing.

Regards Trex.

Now as for the rest of the posts between anko and Steve.

Anko, thanks for helping me out here but I think Steve is still struggling getting his head around the hybrid concept .

I will consider how I might explain it better but you may have something else you can come up with.

Thoughts?

Regards Trex.

Actually I may be being too hard on Steve here.

Are there any others having trouble with understanding what anko or myself have written here?

Please tell us if you are and I (we) will try harder to explain it better.

Regards Trex.

I understand exactly what you are saying. I just disagree with it. Battery power you gain from running in charge mode, and you seem to have acknowledged that this causes higher fuel consumption, will be paid back when you use the charge up later. Yes. But you suffer efficiency losses in the generation, charging and discharging processes and this means you will not get back what you put in, certainly not at cruising speed. If it was beneficial to use charge mode at cruising speed then Mitsubishi would have made it the default.

Steve

Daff said:

I understand exactly what you are saying. I just disagree with it. Battery power you gain from running in charge mode, and you seem to have acknowledged that this causes higher fuel consumption, will be paid back when you use the charge up later. Yes. But you suffer efficiency losses in the generation, charging and discharging processes and this means you will not get back what you put in, certainly not at cruising speed. If it was beneficial to use charge mode at cruising speed then Mitsubishi would have made it the default.

Steve

Click to expand...

As per this thread, Mitsubishi has realized this mode as default.
It can be nicely seen in the graphs.

Use electric energy as long as the battery is full.

If battery level gets low, operate the ICE under best torque (best consumption).
ICE power is used partially for driving, the rest serves for loading the battery.

As soon as the battery has collected some energy, switch of ICE and do some distance in pure EV mode until the collected energy is used up.

Then switch on ICE again and continue as above. This gives the zig-zag line in the graphs.

Best regards, Harald

Harald said:

Daff said:

I understand exactly what you are saying. I just disagree with it. Battery power you gain from running in charge mode, and you seem to have acknowledged that this causes higher fuel consumption, will be paid back when you use the charge up later. Yes. But you suffer efficiency losses in the generation, charging and discharging processes and this means you will not get back what you put in, certainly not at cruising speed. If it was beneficial to use charge mode at cruising speed then Mitsubishi would have made it the default.

Steve

Click to expand...

As per this thread, Mitsubishi has realized this mode as default.
It can be nicely seen in the graphs.

Use electric energy as long as the battery is full.

If battery level gets low, operate the ICE under best torque (best consumption).
ICE power is used partially for driving, the rest serves for loading the battery.

As soon as the battery has collected some energy, switch of ICE and do some distance in pure EV mode until the collected energy is used up.

Then switch on ICE again and continue as above. This gives the zig-zag line in the graphs.

Best regards, Harald

Click to expand...

I think the end result is the same - as long as you use up all the ICE-generated charge before the next grid charge. The only control we have is whether to use it 'now' (Charge Button Off) or later (Charge Button On).

Maybe the Charge button would have been better named as 'Store', or something similar - ie. store generated charge for use later. 'Charge' happens anyway.

MikkB said:

I think the end result is the same - as long as you use up all the ICE-generated charge before the next grid charge. The only control we have is whether to use it 'now' (Charge Button Off) or later (Charge Button On).

Click to expand...

Yes in principle, but:
As already stated on page 3 of this thread: It makes a difference if you allow the car to run the ICE in serial hybrid mode.
Low speed driving is better done on EV mode, if possible.

Furthermore:
The more you can allow the car to glide in B0 or N position, the more conversion losses can be avoided.
It even reduces tyre wear as well...

Daff said:

I understand exactly what you are saying. I just disagree with it. Battery power you gain from running in charge mode, and you seem to have acknowledged that this causes higher fuel consumption, will be paid back when you use the charge up later. Yes. But you suffer efficiency losses in the generation, charging and discharging processes and this means you will not get back what you put in, certainly not at cruising speed. If it was beneficial to use charge mode at cruising speed then Mitsubishi would have made it the default.

Steve

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Steve,

Just for you to write this means you do not understand.

But I consider that to be my fault for not getting the point through properly.

I am sorry for not being better at communication.

But could you just read the whole thread through again with just this in mind.

The PHEV tries to CHARGE the drive battery EVERY time the petrol motor runs EXCEPT under some special circumstances. This is the DEFAULT mode.

This is nothing to do with the charge button.

I explained, and so did anko and others, why it does this.

Regards Trex.

I lurked in the Chevrolet Volt (or Opel Ampera-E to you Europeans) forums for a long time before coming up with this.

The Outlander PHEV operates almost identically to the Volt mk1, except it is an SUV & has a rear-mounted motor generator unit (forgoing the need for the generator motor to act as a 2nd drive motor unit). Chevrolet put in Normal, Sport & Mountain mode on the Volt (hold mode was later added in 2012+). Mountain mode was exactly what it stated; the Volt would use its ICE to charge up to 50% SoC which was meant to keep the car's battery buffer up so it can sustain safe speeds in significant grades.

In essence, Mountain mode is pretty much our Outlander PHEV's Charge mode. With the caveat the Volt by its programming does not allow the ICE charging beyond 50% SoC; I figured GM realized it isn't really all that efficient to be using gas -> generator -> electricity -> battery -> electricity -> motors -> wheels instead of parallel mode's gas -> gearbox -> wheels. Yes EV operation at stop-and-go is great, but as Trex & anko stated - the 4B11 would always be operating at its ideal rpms even in serial hybrid mode so you don't lose much in terms of efficiency. In a sense, you're forcing the PHEV to choose when to burn the gas - either a bit more on the freeway via extra load on the generator or doing so at a light, charging the battery directly.

In that sense, you can use Charge mode but you would likely be wasting more fuel than just letting the car do its own thing. Save mode would be beneficial for retaining SoC for EV duty at lower speeds & using the more efficient parallel drive for highway runs, but letting the car do its thing in city is something hybrids are really good at.

Trades46 said:

...

In that sense, you can use Charge mode but you would likely be wasting more fuel than just letting the car do its own thing. Save mode would be beneficial for retaining SoC for EV duty at lower speeds & using the more efficient parallel drive for highway runs, but letting the car do its thing in city is something hybrids are really good at.

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My problem with "letting the PHEV do its thing" is that its thing is to sit at a very low state of charge - which leaves it short of battery to satisfy unusual demands for power. I would have preferred it to have a "long distance" mode where I could tell it that it was not going to get a plugin charge for several days and where it would move the centre of the hysteresis loop up to something like 50% rather than the one bar that it currently aims for.

maby said:

Trades46 said:

...

In that sense, you can use Charge mode but you would likely be wasting more fuel than just letting the car do its own thing. Save mode would be beneficial for retaining SoC for EV duty at lower speeds & using the more efficient parallel drive for highway runs, but letting the car do its thing in city is something hybrids are really good at.

Click to expand...

My problem with "letting the PHEV do its thing" is that its thing is to sit at a very low state of charge - which leaves it short of battery to satisfy unusual demands for power. I would have preferred it to have a "long distance" mode where I could tell it that it was not going to get a plugin charge for several days and where it would move the centre of the hysteresis loop up to something like 50% rather than the one bar that it currently aims for.

Click to expand...

I think this can be achieved with the Save button.

MikkB said:

...
I think this can be achieved with the Save button.

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You certainly can to an extent, but the level of charge does still drift down even with the Save button selected. I also inevitably end up forgetting to press Save from time to time and finding myself a long way from home with a flat battery and short of acceleration unless I select "Charge".

maby said:

MikkB said:

...
I think this can be achieved with the Save button.

Click to expand...

You certainly can to an extent, but the level of charge does still drift down even with the Save button selected. I also inevitably end up forgetting to press Save from time to time and finding myself a long way from home with a flat battery and short of acceleration unless I select "Charge".

Click to expand...

So how would your 'Long Distance Mode' button work any differently and how would you avoid forgetting to press it? (Assuming its standard Mitsu non-sticky). Wouldn't your 50% level also 'drift' down if you are working the ICE hard all the time and not allowing any window of opportunity for charge replenishment.

MikkB said:

maby said:

MikkB said:

...
I think this can be achieved with the Save button.

Click to expand...

You certainly can to an extent, but the level of charge does still drift down even with the Save button selected. I also inevitably end up forgetting to press Save from time to time and finding myself a long way from home with a flat battery and short of acceleration unless I select "Charge".

Click to expand...

So how would your 'Long Distance Mode' button work any differently and how would you avoid forgetting to press it? (Assuming its standard Mitsu non-sticky). Wouldn't your 50% level also 'drift' down if you are working the ICE hard all the time and not allowing any window of opportunity for charge replenishment.

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True - I would like it to be sticky...

maby said:

True - I would like it to be sticky...

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I would like EVERY button in the PHEV to be sticky. It's weird that they give us the ability for the Lane Departure Warning button to be sticky or not, but nothing else.

generaltso said:

...the Land Departure Warning ...

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Cool gimmick! I want to have that in mine too...