Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:38 am 
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jaapv wrote:
The reason people seem to hate the high-revving engine has nothing to do with efficiency or even the sound itself. After all, there are many cases that a normal car will rev up to maximum revs, and people seem to love screaming through the gears at traffic light sprints, or blasting up a hill in low gear, especially with a loud exhaust.

The problem is a Pavlov-induced disconnect.
We are conditioned to associated the engine sound with road speed and gear chosen, however, on the PHEV the engine sound is associated with power delivered only.

The conditioned mind registers this as "something wrong" Drive the PHEV for a period of time and your brain will be deprogrammed and annoyance will disappear, at least for most people. It depends on the flexibility of your subconscious.


I just want to minimise wear and tear on my car! For me the primary reason for buying a hybrid (apart from the tax concessions) is mechanical simplicity - virtually no gearbox, virtually no clutch, and an engine that is ticking over most of the time. I prefer the idea of the Toyota drive train with the petrol engine and electric motor both able to drive the car at all speeds and cooperating to maximise fuel efficiency, but unfortunately the tax rules have changed now and there is no financial incentive to buy Toyota hybrids.


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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:09 am 
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maby wrote:
For me the primary reason for buying a hybrid (apart from the tax concessions) is mechanical simplicity - virtually no gearbox, virtually no clutch, and an engine that is ticking over most of the time.
maby wrote:
I prefer the idea of the Toyota drive train with the petrol engine and electric motor both able to drive the car at all speeds
You want to have virtually no gearbox, yet you prefer an ICE capable of driving the car at all speeds. I don't see how these go together. I mean, compared to a conventional car, yes. But compared to the PHEV?


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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:22 am 
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maby wrote:
jaapv wrote:
The reason people seem to hate the high-revving engine has nothing to do with efficiency or even the sound itself. After all, there are many cases that a normal car will rev up to maximum revs, and people seem to love screaming through the gears at traffic light sprints, or blasting up a hill in low gear, especially with a loud exhaust.

The problem is a Pavlov-induced disconnect.
We are conditioned to associated the engine sound with road speed and gear chosen, however, on the PHEV the engine sound is associated with power delivered only.

The conditioned mind registers this as "something wrong" Drive the PHEV for a period of time and your brain will be deprogrammed and annoyance will disappear, at least for most people. It depends on the flexibility of your subconscious.


I just want to minimise wear and tear on my car! For me the primary reason for buying a hybrid (apart from the tax concessions) is mechanical simplicity - virtually no gearbox, virtually no clutch, and an engine that is ticking over most of the time. I prefer the idea of the Toyota drive train with the petrol engine and electric motor both able to drive the car at all speeds and cooperating to maximise fuel efficiency, but unfortunately the tax rules have changed now and there is no financial incentive to buy Toyota hybrids.
Well, for a car built to last for over 300.000 km wear and tear is not a very strong argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:27 am 
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anko wrote:
maby wrote:
For me the primary reason for buying a hybrid (apart from the tax concessions) is mechanical simplicity - virtually no gearbox, virtually no clutch, and an engine that is ticking over most of the time.
maby wrote:
I prefer the idea of the Toyota drive train with the petrol engine and electric motor both able to drive the car at all speeds
You want to have virtually no gearbox, yet you prefer an ICE capable of driving the car at all speeds. I don't see how these go together. I mean, compared to a conventional car, yes. But compared to the PHEV?

Quite simple. Use a steam engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:09 am 
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anko wrote:
HPM1111 wrote:
But like I said, I think you should trust the hysteresis cycle to be more efficient than a true Save mode (parallel drive without charging) :)

Perhaps I should trust it (and I will), if I am doubtful of the system´s efficiency it's due to all the reports of low 30's mpg on the motorway without towing. A big suv is never going to be the ideal motorway car due to less than perfect aerodynamics but if you look at it it´s also not the obvious city car :), yet being a hybrid "all in one" and one of the few ev/phev that is both spacious and able to tow it will most definitely be used for towing carvans and do lots of long journeys.
I'm unsure mitsubishi used hysterisis cycle for true mpg/emissions reduction but rather to ensure long battery life with a small battery pack and relatively high eletric motor power output (along with eletric 4wd)


Last edited by HPM1111 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 am 
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anko wrote:
maby wrote:
For me the primary reason for buying a hybrid (apart from the tax concessions) is mechanical simplicity - virtually no gearbox, virtually no clutch, and an engine that is ticking over most of the time.
maby wrote:
I prefer the idea of the Toyota drive train with the petrol engine and electric motor both able to drive the car at all speeds
You want to have virtually no gearbox, yet you prefer an ICE capable of driving the car at all speeds. I don't see how these go together. I mean, compared to a conventional car, yes. But compared to the PHEV?


The Toyota drive train has no gearbox and the ICE drives the wheels directly at all speeds. Power is supplied to the wheels from both the ICE and the electric motor via a three way differential with a fixed ratio and the gears in permanent mesh. The gear ratio of that differential is equivalent to top gear on a conventional car such that the car cruises at motorway speeds with the ICE running at moderate speed and little input from the electric motor. At lower road speeds, this would leave the car unable to accelerate - the combination of the battery and electric motor provide the additional power for acceleration.


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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:05 am 
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maby wrote:
The Toyota drive train has no gearbox and the ICE drives the wheels directly at all speeds. Power is supplied to the wheels from both the ICE and the electric motor via a three way differential with a fixed ratio and the gears in permanent mesh.
Fixed ratio or not, a box with gears is a gearbox, isn't it? Like I said, far less complicated than the one in a conventional car, but still more complicated than the one in a PHEV ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:01 am 
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As far as I am aware, the Prius has a CVT and planetary gear. That is a variable gear train, AKA gearbox.

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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:51 am 
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jaapv wrote:
As far as I am aware, the Prius has a CVT and planetary gear. That is a variable gear train, AKA gearbox.


it does not have anything that I would describe as a gearbox - and I understand the Toyota drive train very well. The petrol engine and electric motor couple into two ports of a three port differential and the third port is coupled to the input port of a second three port differential with the wheels on the other two ports. The CVT effect is achieved by adjusting the speeds of the petrol engine and the electric motor. This latter can also function as a generator so if you are asking for a low road speed with a state of charge that is too low to deliver it from the battery, then the engine can run at a comfortable speed - a couple of thousand RPM - and the speed at the road wheels can be controlled by adjusting the load presented by the motor functioning as a generator. If there is sufficient charge in the battery to meet the demand through the electric motor, then the petrol engine is stopped, locking the corresponding input shaft to the first differential and the electric motor is coupled to the wheels via the fixed ratio of the differential.

There is a second motor-generator which is physically attached to the output shaft of the petrol engine. This is the primary electrical generator for the car and is what is usually responsible for recharging the battery. It also functions as the starter motor for the engine. Unlike the PHEV, the Toyota engine in its hybrid ranges can be fully decompressed when it is stopped, so the required power to start it is pretty low. The motor-generator that is coupled to the first differential is primarily used as a motor, but can be run in reverse as a generator - this is the one that is responsible for regenerative braking.

This arrangement gives the control systems a lot more flexibility in the control of power flow. There is a mode of operation in which the petrol engine is both driving the wheels directly and generating electricity via the generator on its output shaft and that electricity is producing power which is going to the wheels via the second motor-generator. There is a second mode of operation which kicks in when you are running at a low road speed on a flat battery in which the petrol engine is driving the road wheels directly and excess output is being bled off via the second motor-generator and put back into the battery bank.

The mechanical ratio of the planetary differential is fixed and there is no equivalent of the variable ratio that is implemented in more conventional CVT transmissions using cones, belts etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Do not be scared of using that charge button.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:12 am 
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maby wrote:
jaapv wrote:
As far as I am aware, the Prius has a CVT and planetary gear. That is a variable gear train, AKA gearbox.


it does not have anything that I would describe as a gearbox...
Toyota would .... (http://blog.toyota.co.uk/how-does-toyot ... drive-work):

Quote:
Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive system is comprised of six primary components: a petrol engine, an electric motor, an electric generator, the power control unit, and a power split device that uses a special type of gearbox to smoothly distribute power from the engine, motor and generator.


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