ThudnBlundr said:
The wiki link does say that in Norway, the price difference is about $5,000 US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_ZoeWhile reading Wikipedia is to be commended, you're confusing marketing with actual production costs. I'd certainly pay more for a PHEV that has a longer EV range, though the actual production cost on an enlarged battery is dropping all the time and certainly won't be much, if any, more than the initial cost of the smaller battery. Many car manufacturers charge varying amounts for basically identical cars - for instance BMW's 2 litre diesel is available in at least 3 different states of tune in various models, with very subtle physical differences between the engines, but a significant price difference.Woodman411 said:As I mentioned, a big factor here is cost. You neglected to mention that in France, the 41 kWh version costs about $3,000 euros more than the 22 kWh version, and that's *without the battery* - one then has to pay a monthly lease for the battery. Think that will work for the Outlander?
ThudnBlundr said:While reading Wikipedia is to be commended, you're confusing marketing with actual production costs. I'd certainly pay more for a PHEV that has a longer EV range, though the actual production cost on an enlarged battery is dropping all the time and certainly won't be much, if any, more than the initial cost of the smaller battery. Many car manufacturers charge varying amounts for basically identical cars - for instance BMW's 2 litre diesel is available in at least 3 different states of tune in various models, with very subtle physical differences between the engines, but a significant price difference.Woodman411 said:As I mentioned, a big factor here is cost. You neglected to mention that in France, the 41 kWh version costs about $3,000 euros more than the 22 kWh version, and that's *without the battery* - one then has to pay a monthly lease for the battery. Think that will work for the Outlander?
That comparison is silly, if you ask me. When it comes to batteries, the amount of raw materials (which IMHO has a huge impact on price, relatively speaking) doubles when you want to double the capacity of the battery. The amounts of raw materials needed for three different engines, however, would be roughly the same and even if these amounts did differ significantly, it would have relatively little effect on overal cost.ThudnBlundr said:
After the WLTP was adopted just a few weeks ago, many manufacturers have withdrawn their PHEVs from the (Dutch) market. Golf and Passat GTEs are no longer available as they are > 50 gr CO2 under WLTP and therefor the business case is gone . Same applies to many other PHEVs. The only car left (if I am not mistaken) is the new 2019 Outlander, that thanks to the new drive train is still < 50 gr CO2. I know, this is not about doubling range, but still, they did it not once but twice.gobiman said:
Your beloved wikipedia entry may well have 100% been accurate at one particular time, but it doesn't affect my argument that the costs are marketing-driven rather than cost-driven. Any search will show battery costs dropping year on year, for instance this one. So costs have dropped from around $600 per kWh to $200 per kWh since the PHEV and Zoe were introduced. That means that the Zoe 41kWh battery now costs far less than the 22kWh battery did at launch - QEDWoodman411 said:ThudnBlundr said:While reading Wikipedia is to be commended, you're confusing marketing with actual production costs. I'd certainly pay more for a PHEV that has a longer EV range, though the actual production cost on an enlarged battery is dropping all the time and certainly won't be much, if any, more than the initial cost of the smaller battery. Many car manufacturers charge varying amounts for basically identical cars - for instance BMW's 2 litre diesel is available in at least 3 different states of tune in various models, with very subtle physical differences between the engines, but a significant price difference.Woodman411 said:As I mentioned, a big factor here is cost. You neglected to mention that in France, the 41 kWh version costs about $3,000 euros more than the 22 kWh version, and that's *without the battery* - one then has to pay a monthly lease for the battery. Think that will work for the Outlander?
I'm not confused with anything. The wiki reference is specific and accurate - $5,000 difference between 22 kWh and 41 kWh. It doesn't matter what the "actual costs" are, what matters is consumers have to pay $5,000 to get double the range with the Zoe. About this: "enlarged battery is dropping all the time and certainly won't be much, if any, more than the initial cost of the smaller battery" - where do you see this? With the Zoe? Because if we take Norway as an example (France has a monthly rental cost with the battery), in 2014 the 21 kWh costs 191,980 kr (or $21,112 US). 4 years later, the 41 kWh costs 229,900 kr (or $25,282). Is it possible you assumed that Zoe doubled its range while maintaining the same price? It didn't. Here's another reference in the Tesla Model S. In 2012, the 60 kWh version costs $67,400. 6 years later, the 75 kWh version costs $74,500. Don't really see it with Tesla either.
That may be true, but how does it help us in any way? As a 41 kWh battery of today will still be twice as expensive as a 22 kWh battery of today.ThudnBlundr said:
Woodman411 said:
ChrisMiller said:
Tai626 said:
ChrisMiller said:I've been shopping around for a Niro PHEV as a possible replacement when my Mitsi goes back next month*. There are none in the showrooms within 50 miles, and the biggest local dealer tells me they've sold exactly one, but they're happy to take pre-orders for the fully electric version which will definitely be out sometime next year. It doesn't fill me with confidence!
* My current plan is to hit the car auctions and buy it back
(hope there are no Hyundai/Kia owners reading this)