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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:30 am 
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Plus - industries with high peak demand are in constant communication with the grid authority. For instance, Shell Pernis uses compressors in the order of 20 MW. Before they start one of these up, available power in the grid is checked. On other occasions the same refinery will supply considerable amounts of power. That is one way of balancing the grid.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:37 am 
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Not many things are certain on the Internet, but one of them is that any post beginning with "That's total and absolute rubbish" is going to be total and absolute rubbish.

"A huge increase in EVs" from a base of zero a few years ago, it's now approaching 200,000, that's ~0.5% of the UK vehicle fleet (and many of them are PHEVs drawing only part of their energy requirements from the grid, while hardly any of them are the buses and trucks that account for more than half of fuel consumption). There's no spare capacity at all on the grid. If we get a prolonged spell of cold, still weather this winter, don't be surprised if your lights go out. And as for 'storage solutions', that's just magical thinking. The biggest storage scheme in Europe (Dinorwig) can power the UK grid for a few minutes - we'd need something that can do that for days - a few railcars don't even begin to address the problem.

I'd suggest a read of Without Hot Air, by the late, great David MacKay FRS (free PDF):
https://www.withouthotair.com/download.html

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:45 am 
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Location: Warwickshire, UK
Indeed. I've done rocket science - that's a lot of wishful thinking.
It's estimated that if the entire UK transport fleet is electrified we would need to roughly double the amount of electricity we generate. That ain't coming from better use of the current or envisaged capacity - especially on cold calm winter days.


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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:54 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:24 pm
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Location: West Midlands, UK.
If most charging is done overnight, as I suspect it will, EVs will present an opportunity to absorb off-peak power and could be incentivised to do that.
V2G balancing would be icing on the cake, but why not?


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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:01 pm
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Location: Essex, England
It is NOT just a problem of generating capacity, it's infrastructure. Cable, substation sizes, physically siting stuff. The "man on the internet" I quoted earlier, works out all this stuff for his living, if he says there's a problem now, in providing this infrastructure to housing developments where there is no EV charging provision, I'm inclined to believe him when he says there's going to be ongoing difficulties in meeting future needs in respect of EV charging. Regardless of whether there's generating capacity, getting it to the end user will remain a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Well given that it is a stated policy to move towards electric vehicles by 2025/2030 (although the UK might be different - just because it is the general policy in the EU they might want to go in the opposite direction :lol: ) isn't it time that some people in planning and some policymakers got their thumbs out?

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Exactly the problem, Jaapv. Government (at least in the UK) makes wide-ranging pronouncements without asking those who will be tasked with providing the end product as to how it can be done. Or even if it's possible. When told it's not possible, they bury their heads in the sand and plough on anyway - like they're doing with smart electric and gas meters here. They've been told umpteen times the target isn't possible to achieve, but won't admit it's an almighty bodge-up that wasn't thought through in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:43 am 
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Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK
Actually a few railcars is a great solution, with significantly better energy density than water and hugely scalable. And why on earth do we need "days" of backups. There is GWh of spare capacity on the grid; looking at the load curve shows that demand is below peak for most of the day, so there is your capacity to recharge storage. What is causing issues is peak load, which demand pricing could fix virtually overnight if people started paying significantly more when demand is high. But then what would I know, having worked in the electricity industry?

And I'm sorry, but what is the problem with the infrastructure? Of course there will be places where the infrastructure struggles, as there is anywhere where's significant new development since the infrastructure was built: it's the same for sewers, gas pipes and phonelines. Are you saying that a 7kW load in each house in an area is going to fry the local infrastructure? Do you not think the infrastructure was designed with significant spare capacity? Funny how the internet is full of these assertions of looming disaster, but the people who actually know about these things, those who plan for the future for a living, aren't too worried.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I think the distribution of public charge points will be influenced by where it’s convenient or economical to place them, rather than where they may be needed. (7kWh) Home charge points could solve the majority of the demand fairly easily but I see little financial incentive for a provider to reach out to place public charge points in remote parts of the country.

Providing charge points at shopping centres may seem like a good idea to some, but my thoughts are that most visitors would be local and not need to recharge on such a journey, even if there was something useful to do in the meantime. Couple that with cheaper charging back home, and I don’t see many choosing to take advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: What kind of charging infrastructure is required?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:59 am 
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twosout wrote:
Providing charge points at shopping centres may seem like a good idea to some, but my thoughts are that most visitors would be local and not need to recharge on such a journey, even if there was something useful to do in the meantime. Couple that with cheaper charging back home, and I don’t see many choosing to take advantage.

I've visited the free Lidl point on the outskirts of Leeds a few times. If I go into the city centre, I can't get all the way home on battery alone. So I'll sometimes pop in there to do a quick bit of shopping while getting a free 80% charge :mrgreen:

But I agree that most people won't need them. But at bigger shopping centres such as White Rose or Meadowhell, I can see a point. People seem to travel much further to get to those

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