Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Posts: 874
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia
Hi everyone,

Ok, still seeing some people here worried about degradation of the drive battery and I am not just talking about any particular person. Hell even I think about it as I am at the moment dealing with Mitsubishi Australia to hopefully get mine replaced under warranty. But to me its not a worry just more of a hassle. I have to handle far bigger problems at work in my own business with far bigger costs involved. But I digress.

Now I would normally probably write this up over in the Technical section but I think this is probably the most visited section plus I did not want to get too technical. I just want to give some of my general observations.

But just to put it into perspective for people that do not know me my first PHEV is nearly 5 years old (build Feb 2014) bought early April as soon as they released it here.

Now lets get onto the topic. Now remember this is my general observations but with a bit of research and experience thrown in.

I have to get this out of the way first though. Batteries degrade no matter if you never use them and say you put them in a fridge (a common way to protect RC batteries from my experience.). Age will kill them eventually at this moment in time.

Now lets say you just wanted to treat the PHEV just like a Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) as some here I think do ie very little EV mode. By treating the PHEV like this I think the drive battery will last longest unless we do not use it at all. I hope everyone agrees.

But there is more to it than that. What State Of Charge (SOC) would I leave it in. I would do like member maby and leave it at the top of the Charge or Save modes which is about 85% SOC or even higher. As soon as you press Save (or Charge) the SOC will drop down to about 85% from 100% and you should leave Save pressed.

Why I hear you say? Well I am glad you asked. :D Because at that level the PHEV is doing a number of things automatically to protect the battery. It reduces regen on the paddles (B1-B5) on my PHEV and reduces the On Off cycle that happens when the loads are light on the petrol engine dramatically from my tests. It basically puts the PHEV into a automatic reduced use of the battery mode. You will have excess charge to climb hills etc BUT your petrol motor will run more so you will be less efficient and you will probably have to change your brake pads more according to my tests.

Now lets say you still want to EV around town a bit ie use you battery sometimes. I would still leave it at the top of the Save mode of 85% SOC as much as possible out on the highway for the reasons stated above.

Now you will lose some SOC climbing big hills. Do not charge it at the top back to 85% (just leave Save pressed at the bottom) as you will not have anywhere to put back into the battery any regen on the way back down because we do not want to have any chance having brake problems. A battery's cost is not worth safety IMHO. Once back down you can go back to 85% SOC.

So that is basically it. I can bring in my tests or we have graphs etc to show from over in Technical to back up the statements I made above if you feel that necessary.

Also this is not something I would necessarily do but the option is there.

I hope maby does not mind me mentioning him here and hope he will get involved in this discussion. As well as others of course. :)

Ask those questions if you do not understand as sometimes I do NOT explain myself probably as good as I should especially when I am in a hurry to get my thoughts on "paper" as probably in this thread.

I also want to say this. IMHO worrying too much about problems is bad for your health. That include mental,physical and financial health ie I totally believe in not whinging about problems as much as possible and just get into finding ways to solve them as best you can. I just want to put that out there.

As well, please do not come into this discussion if you just want to put crap on Mitsubishi. I think it is a great car and it will not solve anything IMO.But constructive criticism is reasonable I think.

Regards Trex.


Last edited by Trex on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:35 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Saratoga, CA
I think 85% is a bit high and high SoC for sustained periods of time can kill batteries especially in hot weather. I'd keep the batteries at exactly 3.92V/cell which is 7/16 bars on the gauge, or around 55-65% in PHEV Watchdog (on the display with the % SoC and either Ah or kWh next to it). In fact I was looking at how to replace my phone battery today and I found a Reddit page with someone commenting on how his or her Prius manages its batteries: https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/co ... placement/

"As a reference, I own a 1st Generation Prius from 2003. ~115,000 miles and 15yrs old.

15yrs and millions of charge cycles on the original drive battery.

When I monitor the battery state, and it's SOC (State of Charge), it rarely allows it to charge >~70% or allow it to be used and discharged below ~45%. (I may be off by 5-10%, but it was close to this. I never saw 80% full or 40% empty)

This along with the precise temperature monitoring per cell and fan to cool if too hot in the summer, I'm confident helps make these Metal Oxide batteries last 15yrs will millions of charge cycles.

If only we could do the same with phone batteries."


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Posts: 357
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK
Prius batteries were a totally different battery chemistry to our PHEV's Lithium batteries until fairly recently (except for the Prius PHEV), so it is pointless comparing them

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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: Poland
Prius was using NiMh batteries ... which have way less energy density compared to Lithium batteries

NiMh can be stored in any charging condition as far as I know ... but from my old time racing 1:10 RC car and NiMh cells .. "expert" racers like to discharge the pack to 0.7v per cell (1.2v is the nominal voltage per cell) ... but racer were more keen on maximize the performance, not the longevity ... so discharge to 0.7V possibly was only for maximize the power while charging the cells just before the race

NiMh cells have problem on over discharge and bring these into reverse polarity .. discharge to 0V look like is not an issue
NiMh cells have problem on over charge .. since they will start to ventilate and lose capacity


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:28 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:23 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Dee Why
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You could also just drive the car like any other, charge it when you feel like it and generally not worry too much about the battery. That's what I do. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: Poland
Trex wrote:
...

I have to get this out of the way first though. Batteries degrade no matter if you never use them and say you put them in a fridge (a common way to protect RC batteries from my experience.). Age will kill them eventually at this moment in time.
...


I think you like too much Mitsubishi/Outlander/PHEV for be objective in this subject.

Yes, everything with time is going to transform and "die" ... the question is how fast.

A car should be able to last at least 15 years ... ok Mitsubischi Australia decided that 10y is the life of their PHEV .. since they made a mistake on some Australian brochures , and they have been forced to define a precise life time for the Outlander PHEV

You are claiming since ages that SOH does not impact much on EV range ... but this is 100% false and wrong

For how it is designed this PHEV each drop in SOH does impact proportionally into the possible EV range.

80% of SOH, equal 80% of EV range compared to new.

Other thing that I find hard to accept ... it is to try to dis-inform people that the Mitsibishi PHEV batteries are worrying free
Even recent PHEV from 2017 shown a mayor drop of SOH even with less then 20.000km ... the WatchDog facebook page is full of people reporting very poor SOH , also from people with a new PHEV and few km done

With your car you are lucky due to the legal action done by somebody that believe in opposite way then you, and thanks to then and to the PR mistake of Mitsubishi, now everybody in Australia with an PHEV (sold at the time that the wrong information published) has granted 80% SOH for the 10y of the car life .. with free battery exchange from Mitsubishi

Other are not so lucky and have to fight for get battery replacement for battery that lost over 30% SOH
Other will have to pay with further car devaluation, since we have already reports of how badly the car behave when the battery is in very low SOH and with high IR

Finally ...

Since there is a big difference in SOH of our batteries ... yes ... how people handle the car and how people charge their own PHEV, has a huge impact on the battery life and battery SOH.

PS: People bought a PHEV with 50km EV range ... assuming it can do 40km in EV mode also 10y after the car was new ... people don't expect that once the SOH is too bad ... the car is more a normal hybrid then a PHEV


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: Poland
HHL wrote:

You could also just drive the car like any other, charge it when you feel like it and generally not worry too much about the battery. That's what I do. 8-)


Just an important note

If I make 1km in EV mode, with energy sources from my home electric network ... this km cost me 25% compared to 1km done with the energy coming from the petrol in the PHEV tank. It is a factor 4 .. which isn't that much irrelevant.

This without taking into account that when the PHEV run with the ICE on ... it does "consume" multiple components of the car, which otherwise they would be preserved

Lower is the SOH, and more expensive is the usage and the maintenance of the PHEV


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:06 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:30 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Wales
I think people are worrying far too much about the battery in the PHEV.

I just drive and charge the car as is required and what fits around my life. The car is just a tool to get me and mine from A to B, and it does that reliably and comfortably (albeit with a wobbly gear knob :roll: ooer, steady!).

I don't have the watchdog app (stone him he's a luddite!) and I don't know exactly what state of health my battery is before, during or after a drive (too busy enjoying life with my family or listening to music or both (kids hate both :lol: )), It still takes about 5 hours to charge overnight on the provided charger that came with the car, so I am happy that the car still does 22 to 26 miles on EV alone. I look at the battery the same way that I have looked at every lead acid battery, brake pads/shoes and discs, tyres or wiper blades from all the cars I have owned before, it is a consumable item that has a certain life and will wear-out, degrade or generally stop working at some point.

If my EV range drops too much too quickly, then I will of course be back to the dealer to get it sorted, has anyone had a battery reduction of 50% or more?

I plan on keeping this car for a few more years yet, and if in another 5 years say my EV only range is in single figures then I will look into the feasibility of a replacement battery (hopefully solid state) or the option I am really hoping for is to change the car for a BEV depending on how the charging infrastructure has improved by then (looks like a battery upgrade in the PHEV then).

I really enjoy reading all the different views and information on this forum, but for me I try to enjoy every day to the fullest I can, and to be honest the battery in my car is not on my list of things to worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:33 am
Posts: 34
As advised to us by Mitsubishi, via the dealer, in response to our question about how to slow the rate of degradation;

[*]Always run the battery down to "empty" before recharging
[*]Always charge to completely full
[*]Never partially charge
[*]See if that helps

I have it on an email from them somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: How to best protect your drive battery.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:37 am
Posts: 511
Location: Bucks
Sumpy wrote:
I just drive and charge the car as is required and what fits around my life. The car is just a tool to get me and mine from A to B, and it does that reliably and comfortably

Amen, brother. Look, I'm a geek, I like to play with the flappy paddles and even the save/charge buttons, but I don't expect to make more than a few percent difference* to either fuel consumption or battery life. It's certainly not something to agonise about.

* and I'm not even sure whether positive or negative :)

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