SeattlePHEV
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A number of early PHEV conversions were the Prius with another battery added to the system. Has anyone heard of an Outlander owner doing the same?
Thanks for any advice.
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Adding Additional Batter Capacity
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TheBunyip
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As yet I have not ready any reports of any end user owner adding additional drive battery capacity.
However it would seem to have been undertaken by Mitsubishi as part of the modifications preparing PHEVs for rally competitions. The PHEV entered in this years Baja Portalegre 500 had an "upgraded PHEV system". More output from the electric motors would have drained the standard drive battery very quickly. So the statement in the "Car Advice" article provides confirmation, if little detail.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publish/pressrelease_en/corporate/2015/news/detail0972.html
We will just have to wait a few months to see if the Australian journalists are correct and a beefed up mitsubishi Outlander PHEV may contest the Dakar rally.
However it would seem to have been undertaken by Mitsubishi as part of the modifications preparing PHEVs for rally competitions. The PHEV entered in this years Baja Portalegre 500 had an "upgraded PHEV system". More output from the electric motors would have drained the standard drive battery very quickly. So the statement in the "Car Advice" article provides confirmation, if little detail.
See: http://www.caradvice.com.au/390922/2015-baja-portalegre-event-review/
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publish/pressrelease_en/corporate/2015/news/detail0972.html
We will just have to wait a few months to see if the Australian journalists are correct and a beefed up mitsubishi Outlander PHEV may contest the Dakar rally.
Neverfuel
Well-known member
SeattlePHEV said:
I don't think it would be as simple as adding extra capacity, i.e. Bolting in a few more batteries. The electronics controlling the battery charging are quite sophisticated and are controlled by a cell monitoring unit. This ensures that when the cells are recharged, they can charge up to an even level. An external battery would not have this feature. There would also be no battery cooling. The PHEV ECU could not monitor its performance and give warnings if anything went wrong. Also as the drive battery operates at 300v, I don't think it would be wise to be messing with the high voltage wiring looms.
Mitsubishi will, over time, increase the battery capacity on future models of the PHEV, but I don't think it will be a backwards compatible option. We will probably see a big leap forward from the technology we have when they release the ASX PHEV.
I agree with neverfuel.
If things go on a similar path to BMW, then you will have to swap out complete battery (with cell control, etc) for a new upgraded battery.
BMW have defined their cell size so that upgrades are possible. The energy density will increase as will the need for more sophisticated heat management systems.
With the amount off energy stored in car drive battery you would be very brave/unwise to mess with it.
By the way, BMW are saying the latest increase in range is only an interim step as they say they will double present range within a very few years. We must wait to see the Mitsubishi new ASX? drive train. It looks like it will include a smaller turbo engine, better batteries and all wheel drive.
If things go on a similar path to BMW, then you will have to swap out complete battery (with cell control, etc) for a new upgraded battery.
BMW have defined their cell size so that upgrades are possible. The energy density will increase as will the need for more sophisticated heat management systems.
With the amount off energy stored in car drive battery you would be very brave/unwise to mess with it.
By the way, BMW are saying the latest increase in range is only an interim step as they say they will double present range within a very few years. We must wait to see the Mitsubishi new ASX? drive train. It looks like it will include a smaller turbo engine, better batteries and all wheel drive.
SeattlePHEV
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Thank you all for your replies, very helpful.
Just one comment to add to this. Bearing in mind that I have not actually taken apart an Aspire, but I have had a lot of experience building large high voltage battery packs out of LiPo and LiFe cells for electric bikes and electric motorcycles, there's one thing I would like to point out, but it needs a bit of background first.
All lithium cells have something called a battery management system, or a BMS. Since Lithium cells are usually only 3.7 or 3.8v, you need around 80 cells to make the 300v battery that we have in our cars. The problem with 80 cells though, is that each cell might be just that tiny bit different from each other, and over a long enough life time, you could have one cell charged, while the cell next to it is close to flat. Why is that a problem? Well, overcharge a lithium cell, and you're asking for a battery fire...
So, in order to keep each cell at the same voltage, the battery management system will either charge up only the low cells (bottom balancing), drain off the full cells (top balancing), or some really exotic ones will just take energy from the highest cell and send them to the lowest cell at any voltage. The BMS also does a few other things like restrict charge rate, and restrict drain rate, but anyway.
The only reason I tell you all this, is that it is extremely foolish to run such a high voltage battery without a battery management system, and if you don't know the exact design, you'd be foolish to try to add capacity behind the existing BMS.
However, at some point, your battery stops being seen as 80 individually managed cells, and it just becomes a voltage on a wire. If you could find that point, and tap into it with your own 300v battery that has a BMS that you have the specs for, you could parallel the battery there, and let each BMS sort out its own battery.
Let's say you could buy one of these: There's a nice 30kwh pack you could use to quadruple the range we have... http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/lifepo4-300v-100ah-batteries-for-EV_60248004058.html
That has its own BMS, that will manage the pack for you. You will almost certainly confuse the onboard computer though, as it will measure every KWh going in and out, and since you've changed the pack capacity, it might actually not use the extra capacity and indeed could even cause a fault "I've put 13kwh into this battery and it's still not full??!! Something is wrong, turn on a Malfunction Light!" etc...
So the short answer is still the same as everyone else's. Not worth the effort to try this. Long answer - there's several ways to skin a cat, and it's not by any means impossible.
One day when this car is out of warranty, if the battery pack is the first (and only thing) to break, I might build my own battery pack and try it. There's not a snow ball's chance in hell I'm playing around with it while it's still under warranty or still running well though.
All lithium cells have something called a battery management system, or a BMS. Since Lithium cells are usually only 3.7 or 3.8v, you need around 80 cells to make the 300v battery that we have in our cars. The problem with 80 cells though, is that each cell might be just that tiny bit different from each other, and over a long enough life time, you could have one cell charged, while the cell next to it is close to flat. Why is that a problem? Well, overcharge a lithium cell, and you're asking for a battery fire...
So, in order to keep each cell at the same voltage, the battery management system will either charge up only the low cells (bottom balancing), drain off the full cells (top balancing), or some really exotic ones will just take energy from the highest cell and send them to the lowest cell at any voltage. The BMS also does a few other things like restrict charge rate, and restrict drain rate, but anyway.
The only reason I tell you all this, is that it is extremely foolish to run such a high voltage battery without a battery management system, and if you don't know the exact design, you'd be foolish to try to add capacity behind the existing BMS.
However, at some point, your battery stops being seen as 80 individually managed cells, and it just becomes a voltage on a wire. If you could find that point, and tap into it with your own 300v battery that has a BMS that you have the specs for, you could parallel the battery there, and let each BMS sort out its own battery.
Let's say you could buy one of these: There's a nice 30kwh pack you could use to quadruple the range we have... http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/lifepo4-300v-100ah-batteries-for-EV_60248004058.html
That has its own BMS, that will manage the pack for you. You will almost certainly confuse the onboard computer though, as it will measure every KWh going in and out, and since you've changed the pack capacity, it might actually not use the extra capacity and indeed could even cause a fault "I've put 13kwh into this battery and it's still not full??!! Something is wrong, turn on a Malfunction Light!" etc...
So the short answer is still the same as everyone else's. Not worth the effort to try this. Long answer - there's several ways to skin a cat, and it's not by any means impossible.
One day when this car is out of warranty, if the battery pack is the first (and only thing) to break, I might build my own battery pack and try it. There's not a snow ball's chance in hell I'm playing around with it while it's still under warranty or still running well though.
I'm not sure how reliable the source but I was told when my PHEV was in for service that in the not too distant future (but a couple of years yet) they are aiming for 48kwh. Apparently the recharge time will be similar to present, though that side of the physics is behind me. It would need a big current to achieve that.Neverfuel said:
anko
Well-known member
I though about that (not seriously, of course). A safe solution would be to have such a device in your truck or a trailer and run a 230 volt charge cable from it to your car and hook it up to the external charge port. To bad, the car will not operator when something is hooked up to the charge port. But imagine, you have enough capacity to make it to work or back but not both. And there is no charge point on your work location. Than you would be able to charge your drive battery from such a device while you are at work :idea:Sunder said:
Come to think of it, how much is it? :mrgreen:
gwatpe
Well-known member
anko said:I though about that (not seriously, of course). A safe solution would be to have such a device in your truck or a trailer and run a 230 volt charge cable from it to your car and hook it up to the external charge port. To bad, the car will not operator when something is hooked up to the charge port. But imagine, you have enough capacity to make it to work or back but not both. And there is no charge point on your work location. Than you would be able to charge your drive battery from such a device while you are at work :idea:Sunder said:
Come to think of it, how much is it? :mrgreen:
Probably a lot more expense and trouble than getting your boss to install a charge point for you at work, or some other place you might want one.
anko said:
That's one of the problems with Aliexpress, everything is listed as "$1", and you need to contact them to get a real price!
I can't give you an exact price for that battery, but I know that large LiFePo4 batteries are approximately $400-500USD per kilowatt hour. So let's say that one's somewhere between $12,000 and $15,000USD. Way beyond my current willingness to spend!
That said, I noticed my local shopping centre's charger was charging at 3.7kw. The first 3 hours is free. That means technically, I could build an 11kwh pack in the boot of my car, connect one charger to the car, the other charger to the pack, then bring the lot home to power my house. We average about 18kwh/day in summer, and 12kwh/day in winter (We have very hot summers in Australia, and relatively mild winters - which I warm using gas).
Free electricity! ... As long as I could be bothered waiting 3 hours at the local shopping centre every single day. Now I'm just getting silly.
anko
Well-known member
gwatpe said:anko said:I though about that (not seriously, of course). A safe solution would be to have such a device in your truck or a trailer and run a 230 volt charge cable from it to your car and hook it up to the external charge port. To bad, the car will not operator when something is hooked up to the charge port. But imagine, you have enough capacity to make it to work or back but not both. And there is no charge point on your work location. Than you would be able to charge your drive battery from such a device while you are at work :idea:Sunder said:
Come to think of it, how much is it? :mrgreen:
Probably a lot more expense and trouble than getting your boss to install a charge point for you at work, or some other place you might want one.
True. But in most cases, my boss is not the person who decides on installing charge points. As I am self-employed and work at customer locations almost 100% of my time.
anko
Well-known member
IndeedSunder said:
greendwarf
Well-known member
anko said:IndeedSunder said:
Get a part-time job in the shopping centre to fill in the time and make some money, as well :idea:
Ozukus
Well-known member
greendwarf said:anko said:IndeedSunder said:
Get a part-time job in the shopping centre to fill in the time and make some money, as well :idea:
Or a really, really, really long extension cable, and then just do it at home!
