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leandro91

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Nov 4, 2019
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Hi, I'm new to the community, first of all, thank you for the forum and the community and the work of the administrators for running this website in the best way. I have my mistubishi outlander phev from 2014 for 3 weeks. I bought it from second hand from an importer who brought it from Holland. I wanted to know the maintenance issue, I see in the indications that the brake fluid is mandatory to change every 15,000 (km.). and above all what do you think about abusing the fast charges chademo? To what extent are they negative and bad for the batteries? because I am charging twice a week using Chademo. And I'm worried..126,000 km keyteki, and I am using enough chademo that there is a free recharge point near my house.
 
As long as you are charging regularly using a type 1 cable (the other connector on the car next to the Chademo one), the batteries should be OK with that usage. You need to make sure that the car regularly charges to full on the type 1 so that the individual cells within the drive battery can be balanced
 
leandro91 said:
Hi, I'm new to the community, first of all, thank you for the forum and the community and the work of the administrators for running this website in the best way. I have my mistubishi outlander phev from 2014 for 3 weeks. I bought it from second hand from an importer who brought it from Holland. I wanted to know the maintenance issue, I see in the indications that the brake fluid is mandatory to change every 15,000 (km.). and above all what do you think about abusing the fast charges chademo? To what extent are they negative and bad for the batteries? because I am charging twice a week using Chademo. And I'm worried..126,000 km keyteki, and I am using enough chademo that there is a free recharge point near my house.
You want my honest opinion on this? I think Mitsu is full of crap. If you look at the amount of power being pushed into the batteries when you use even B2 (which is equivalent to "D"), and you take your foot off of the accelerator at 75 mph, it's something like 10-15 kW. When you step on the brake to slow down, you will see surges of up to 45 kW. And when you drive on the freeway at say 70 mph, you are drawing power from the batteries at around 20-30 kW continuously. And they're afraid of CHAdeMO? If the batteries can't take 18 kW of charging, then why did they design the vehicle to push 45 kW+ of power into it when you brake and descend hills (especially on the B3-B5 setting) and draw power from the batteries at 30+ kW when you drive on the freeway, by DEFAULT? Now I will say that I try to avoid sustained amounts of time either charging or discharging the battery at > 15 kW, and I do it by always using Save mode on the freeway, but honestly, if their car is going to behave like it does in everyday driving the way they expect it to be used (i.e. the driver just uses it in Normal mode the entire time), then CHAdeMO isn't really any worse in comparison.

Personally, I think it's just an attempt to avoid having to do warranty replacements and they figured it's easier to hound people over their charging habits than avoid the (just as bad for the batteries) behavior that the car exhibits during normal driving.
 
Here in the Uk (and I believe in the rest of 230vAC Western Europe) Chademo chargers work at a minimum of 50 KWh and 125A. There are some at 100 KWh with plans for even more powerful ones.

I believe the main issue is that the system bypasses the regulators in the car to just dump huge amounts of power over a sustained period into the batteries.

When you are driving, even in B5, unless you coast down Mt Everest, you are never going to get anywhere near that amount of regenerative power for more than a few seconds at a time.

This is why there are all those fully justified warnings in the manual.
 
Short bursts of high power will not produce the thermal load that sustained high-power charging does - which is the reason for Mitsubishi's warning.
 
jaapv said:
Short bursts of high power will not produce the thermal load that sustained high-power charging does - which is the reason for Mitsubishi's warning.
You mean like descending from Tioga Pass to Mono Lake in B5 and using the brakes too? There's also the issue of sustained high-power discharging, which is just as bad for the batteries, and occurs whenever you're driving on the freeway.

The issue isn't so much one of thermal load -- after all, these batteries do have active cooling. After using CHAdeMO, the warmest cells in my batteries are usually around 34C or so, which isn't too much different than their temperature when driving around on a fairly warm day. It's just that charging/discharging batteries at 2C-5C isn't good for them, and that's a problem that pretty much every PHEV has: super small batteries. They go through a ton of cycles and they're often charged and discharged at very high power levels for long periods of time relative to their capacity. That said, I do use CHAdeMO nearly every time I fill up the gas tank (maybe every 2-4 weeks or so), since there's a grocery store with a free CHAdeMO charger near the gas station. I don't think that's going to do much to the battery life because they go through so many cycles outside of this situation.
 
Steel188 said:
Here in the Uk (and I believe in the rest of 230vAC Western Europe) Chademo chargers work at a minimum of 50 KWh and 125A. There are some at 100 KWh with plans for even more powerful ones.

I believe the main issue is that the system bypasses the regulators in the car to just dump huge amounts of power over a sustained period into the batteries.

When you are driving, even in B5, unless you coast down Mt Everest, you are never going to get anywhere near that amount of regenerative power for more than a few seconds at a time.

This is why there are all those fully justified warnings in the manual.

Sorry almost none of the above is true, there is no “minimum” a DC rapid will charge at, a 50kW charger will supply exactly the same current to a PHEV as a 100kW charger, simply what is asked. I seem to remember the 50kW one at work delivers 30kW to start with as that’s what the car requests.

There is no dumping of power uncontrolled to the batteries, and there are no regulators being bypassed. The car controls the charger and the charger delivers the current requested, it’s always up to the car what is delivered and if it detects a problem it can disconnect entirely.
 
jaapv said:
Ok - I guess you know better than Mitsubishi...
I'm going by what I see on the power meter when I descend a long hill in B5. You can often see 20-30 kW of power going into the battery for a long time. Doesn't matter if it's coming from a CHAdeMO plug or from a hill descent, it's just as bad for the batteries. And you can also track the power coming out of the batteries on the freeway, and you'll often see powers of over 20 kW there too, if you let the car stay in Normal mode.

Craigy said:
Sorry almost none of the above is true, there is no “minimum” a DC rapid will charge at, a 50kW charger will supply exactly the same current to a PHEV as a 100kW charger, simply what is asked. I seem to remember the 50kW one at work delivers 30kW to start with as that’s what the car requests.

There is no dumping of power uncontrolled to the batteries, and there are no regulators being bypassed. The car controls the charger and the charger delivers the current requested, it’s always up to the car what is delivered and if it detects a problem it can disconnect entirely.

Sometimes I wonder if people who make statements like that have ever actually used the CHAdeMO port on their vehicles. If the charger is capable of more than 60A, then charging starts at 60A @ ~310V (18.6 kW) if SoC is sufficiently low. The vehicle does not allow a current of more than 60A, ever. As such, CHAdeMO charging power maxes out at around 18-20 kW max. It will rise slightly, as current will stay steady at 60A as voltage increases from around 310V to around 330V. Assuming you started at around 30% SoC (1 bar on the gauge), after about 12-15 minutes, the charging current starts to roll off and decrease; at this point, the batteries are at around 330V. By around 15-20 minutes in, the SoC will hit 80% (the max level with CHAdeMO) when the batteries are at around 330-331V and current will have fallen to 24A which is around 8 kW. When the SoC hits 81%, the charger shuts down.
 
You must be descending Mount Everest if your high power input stays as high as that for as long as a CHAdeMO charge lasts.
 
STS134 said:
jaapv said:
Ok - I guess you know better than Mitsubishi...
I'm going by what I see on the power meter when I descend a long hill in B5. You can often see 20-30 kW of power going into the battery for a long time. Doesn't matter if it's coming from a CHAdeMO plug or from a hill descent, it's just as bad for the batteries. And you can also track the power coming out of the batteries on the freeway, and you'll often see powers of over 20 kW there too, if you let the car stay in Normal mode.

Craigy said:
Sorry almost none of the above is true, there is no “minimum” a DC rapid will charge at, a 50kW charger will supply exactly the same current to a PHEV as a 100kW charger, simply what is asked. I seem to remember the 50kW one at work delivers 30kW to start with as that’s what the car requests.

There is no dumping of power uncontrolled to the batteries, and there are no regulators being bypassed. The car controls the charger and the charger delivers the current requested, it’s always up to the car what is delivered and if it detects a problem it can disconnect entirely.

Sometimes I wonder if people who make statements like that have ever actually used the CHAdeMO port on their vehicles. If the charger is capable of more than 60A, then charging starts at 60A @ ~310V (18.6 kW) if SoC is sufficiently low. The vehicle does not allow a current of more than 60A, ever. As such, CHAdeMO charging power maxes out at around 18-20 kW max. It will rise slightly, as current will stay steady at 60A as voltage increases from around 310V to around 330V. Assuming you started at around 30% SoC (1 bar on the gauge), after about 12-15 minutes, the charging current starts to roll off and decrease; at this point, the batteries are at around 330V. By around 15-20 minutes in, the SoC will hit 80% (the max level with CHAdeMO) when the batteries are at around 330-331V and current will have fallen to 24A which is around 8 kW. When the SoC hits 81%, the charger shuts down.

Yes I use it a lot, as I said previously I can’t quite remember what the requested current is from a dc rapid for the PHEV when there battery is under 80% but I thought it was 90A last time I checked (about 30 kW).
Actually the initial request for current has to be 0 as the current is only allowed to be increased by a certain number of amps per second, you can see this on a scope it you’re wired in to a charger (I have done this, I’m guessing you haven’t).
Your not really saying anything different to me, and I’ve admitted that I can’t remember the actual current, I was sure it’s 90A but it might be 60A. I was pretty sure it was about 30kW though which gives some credence to my 90A thought.
 
jaapv said:
You must be descending Mount Everest if your high power input stays as high as that for as long as a CHAdeMO charge lasts.

Exhibit A - Tioga Pass Road between Tioga Pass and Mono Lake (CA-120): https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9501071,-119.2051266,3a,75y,91.43h,86.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJtPUACxqM3q0lSOz87S3kg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Geologically, the Sierra Nevada range is an uplifted, tilted block mountain range. The western side has a relatively gentle slope, and takes around 60-90 miles to get from base to crest. But the eastern side is an escarpment, and drops from crest to the valley floors in a matter of only a few miles. The road in this spot descends the eastern side of the mountain. You can see the dramatic views of the escarpment by going a few miles east of the mountains on the valley floor and looking back to the west, for example, at this spot, with the view looking back toward the mountains, with Tioga Pass near the right side of the photo: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9034193,-119.0620978,3a,75y,258.32h,90.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjs41uIA-A0p63GEs_9Assw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Exhibit B - Grapevine grade (Interstate 5): https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8861649,-118.9031653,3a,75y,297.77h,84.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQFZUrcN1wbjO85hUHqYvYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4 5 miles of 6% grade. In my experience, this isn't as hard on the batteries coming downhill as roads like Tioga Pass Road, because it's a freeway and you can just let it coast in B0 @ 90 mph, ignoring the "watch downhill speed" signs. Even so, you may have to lightly use the brakes at times to not exceed 90 mph. But going UP this grade in the opposite direction is much worse on the batteries. The car must run the ICE at maximum power and draws down the battery by about 50% on the gauge in around 8-9 minutes. And that's from the Grapevine exit all the way up to Tejon Pass, and includes the relatively flat area between Lebec and Frazier Mountain Park Road. If we include only the 5 mile 6% grade section, it's drawing down the batteries even faster, albeit only around 5-6 bars, but it does THAT in around 4 minutes. If you're using the PHEV Watchdog app, you'll see the cell temps suddenly spike, and they'll go over 34C even on a cold day, and the battery fans rev up to at least 70%.

So no, it doesn't last as long as a CHAdeMO session. But the peak power pushed in or drawn from the batteries are way higher than CHAdeMO would ever do. The car caps CHAdeMO sessions at 60A but the current into or out of the batteries in these areas can average 90A with peaks way higher than that. Which is even worse for the batteries.

Craigy said:
Yes I use it a lot, as I said previously I can’t quite remember what the requested current is from a dc rapid for the PHEV when there battery is under 80% but I thought it was 90A last time I checked (about 30 kW).
Actually the initial request for current has to be 0 as the current is only allowed to be increased by a certain number of amps per second, you can see this on a scope it you’re wired in to a charger (I have done this, I’m guessing you haven’t).
Your not really saying anything different to me, and I’ve admitted that I can’t remember the actual current, I was sure it’s 90A but it might be 60A. I was pretty sure it was about 30kW though which gives some credence to my 90A thought.

Does this help?

View attachment CHAdeMO_32.jpg

View attachment CHAdeMO_68.jpg

View attachment CHAdeMO_80.jpg
 
Fair enough, I was certain it was 90A but I stand corrected, I’ll check on Friday when I’ll next likely use one, the only other thought is I have a different version to you (larger battery pack), however a difference of 30A seems like a lot.
 
This is all very helpful. Never used a CHAdeMO before but will be using one over the weekend (twice on our journey) so this gives me a good understanding of what to expect.

Thanks. :D
 
jaapv said:
You must be descending Mount Everest if your high power input stays as high as that for as long as a CHAdeMO charge lasts.
I'd have to agree with STS that you don't need Mount Everest to use regenerative braking as long as a CHAdeMO charge. Being an enthusiastic mountain hiker and skier, I can easily point out a dozen of locations in Austria where you can descend for 15 min or more on the engine brake (hence the regenerative brake in the Outlander). No issue for me, driving there a couple of times a year. As people also live there, I can imagine their Outlander battery won't have an easy life.
 
If you have PSideP displayed on the central screen, you can see regen maxing out the 30kW bar chart regularly, so 45kW is quite believable for max regen. That's close to 4C on a 12kWh battery, which is high but not overly so. As I mentioned in my initial post, I think it's the lack of balancing with a Chademo charge (and with regen, I would guess). So I believe the Mitsubishi comment about excessive Chademo charging is to do with that lack of balancing (and another reason why it stops at 80%).

Going by receipts from Chademo charging, I rarely squeeze more than 6kWh in: with a ~20 minute charge, that averages to ~18kW. I've not see the profile of the power, but I must admit I'd assumed it was fairly flat - I'd be interested to know if the actual curve is different.

As an aside, we cycled to Everest on the Tibetan side. This was 25 years ago and BC (before children). Though the base camp is high at 5,200m, the dirt road in and out isn't actually that steep most of the time. Little coasting on a mountain bike and slim chance for regen in a PHEV. However the final pass out of Tibet is around the same height: after cycling 99% downhill for 2 days solid we reached 600m. You'd need a big battery for that!
 
KWh said:
jaapv said:
You must be descending Mount Everest if your high power input stays as high as that for as long as a CHAdeMO charge lasts.
I'd have to agree with STS that you don't need Mount Everest to use regenerative braking as long as a CHAdeMO charge. Being an enthusiastic mountain hiker and skier, I can easily point out a dozen of locations in Austria where you can descend for 15 min or more on the engine brake (hence the regenerative brake in the Outlander). No issue for me, driving there a couple of times a year. As people also live there, I can imagine their Outlander battery won't have an easy life.
Hence my statement that Mitsu is full of it. Their car's default behavior is much worse on the batteries than using CHAdeMO, but they'd rather hound people over their charging habits than actually redesign the car to be easier on the batteries, because that would be much more costly. So they figure they'll beat up the batteries in daily driving, and hopefully if people don't use CHAdeMO too much, degradation won't exceed the threshold at which they'll need tor replace them.

ThudnBlundr said:
If you have PSideP displayed on the central screen, you can see regen maxing out the 30kW bar chart regularly, so 45kW is quite believable for max regen.

Taken after descending from the Mount Hamilton summit:
View attachment MaxRegen.jpg

ThudnBlundr said:
That's close to 4C on a 12kWh battery, which is high but not overly so. As I mentioned in my initial post, I think it's the lack of balancing with a Chademo charge (and with regen, I would guess). So I believe the Mitsubishi comment about excessive Chademo charging is to do with that lack of balancing (and another reason why it stops at 80%).
4C is way too high if you want the batteries to live long. I don't think they did the tests mentioned at batteryuniversity with more than one cell. https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die
View attachment C-rate.jpg

ThudnBlundr said:
Going by receipts from Chademo charging, I rarely squeeze more than 6kWh in: with a ~20 minute charge, that averages to ~18kW. I've not see the profile of the power, but I must admit I'd assumed it was fairly flat - I'd be interested to know if the actual curve is different.
Yep, it's mostly flat, until it gets to around 70%, then it falls off. While EVgo will tell you current, ChargePoint will tell you power. But it only samples once every 5 minutes so a good deal of the roll-off was not captured here.
View attachment ChargePoint_CHAdeMO.png
 
STS134 said:
jaapv said:
You must be descending Mount Everest if your high power input stays as high as that for as long as a CHAdeMO charge lasts.

Exhibit A - Tioga Pass Road between Tioga Pass and Mono Lake (CA-120): https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9501071,-119.2051266,3a,75y,91.43h,86.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJtPUACxqM3q0lSOz87S3kg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Geologically, the Sierra Nevada range is an uplifted, tilted block mountain range. The western side has a relatively gentle slope, and takes around 60-90 miles to get from base to crest. But the eastern side is an escarpment, and drops from crest to the valley floors in a matter of only a few miles. The road in this spot descends the eastern side of the mountain. You can see the dramatic views of the escarpment by going a few miles east of the mountains on the valley floor and looking back to the west, for example, at this spot, with the view looking back toward the mountains, with Tioga Pass near the right side of the photo: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9034193,-119.0620978,3a,75y,258.32h,90.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjs41uIA-A0p63GEs_9Assw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I remember the first time I drove on US 395 from Reno to Los Angeles. (This was nearly 40 years ago.) I was driving south of the Nevada/California border, and it was so picturesque I said to myself "they should make a national park out of this". A couple miles later, a sign indicated a right turn to Yosemite... (E.g., Tioga Pass road.)

Exhibit B - Grapevine grade (Interstate 5): https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8861649,-118.9031653,3a,75y,297.77h,84.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQFZUrcN1wbjO85hUHqYvYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4 5 miles of 6% grade. In my experience, this isn't as hard on the batteries coming downhill as roads like Tioga Pass Road, because it's a freeway and you can just let it coast in B0 @ 90 mph, ignoring the "watch downhill speed" signs. Even so, you may have to lightly use the brakes at times to not exceed 90 mph. But going UP this grade in the opposite direction is much worse on the batteries. The car must run the ICE at maximum power and draws down the battery by about 50% on the gauge in around 8-9 minutes. And that's from the Grapevine exit all the way up to Tejon Pass, and includes the relatively flat area between Lebec and Frazier Mountain Park Road. If we include only the 5 mile 6% grade section, it's drawing down the batteries even faster, albeit only around 5-6 bars, but it does THAT in around 4 minutes. If you're using the PHEV Watchdog app, you'll see the cell temps suddenly spike, and they'll go over 34C even on a cold day, and the battery fans rev up to at least 70%.

The Grapevine is always entertaining in its own right. Assuming you set "charge mode" some time before hitting the hill, so that there is plenty of battery power available? (That is the normal technique for a Chevy Volt with its "mountain mode". Though it is not needed as much with the Gen 2 Volt as the Gen 1 Volt did.)
 
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