B0. Sometimes our gauges are not quite right IMO.

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Trex

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
921
Location
Near Port Macquarie Australia
Hi folks,

Now from reading some of the comments here I get the impression that some think that B0 on the paddles is using no energy from our drive batteries ie B0 = no regen, so no power in or out of the drive (or traction) battery.

Now I can see why people would think that because some of our gauges are not showing any power being used or added to the battery when in B0. For example on the MMCS power dial on my oldest PHEV at 60kph it takes approx 7.5 kW of power to hold that speed, as shown on the MMCS dial, travelling on the relatively flat road here with no AC or heating. But when I lift my foot off the accelerator in B0 it show 0 kW is being used on the dial. :shock:

Now here is the problem. To make a electric motor "freewheel" (or 2 in our case being the front axle and back axle motors) or get rid of the "drag" of an electric motor as seen in B0 requires power. Sure not as much as that 7.5 kW I mentioned previously but it is there.

Now lets look at some examples. Now we must first remember that just turning on my PHEV costs me .33 kW (or 330 Watts) of power as seen by the EVbatmon app. This is not moving as in being in Park or Neutral on the transmission, no AC, no heating, and no lights etc. We can talk about these what I call "standby" loads later if you want to but they are there and include items, from memory, like the EV Cooling System etc.

Now at 60 kph I see approx 1.29 kW of power in B0 so subtract that .33 kW I was talking about above give us approx .96 kW (or 960 Watts) of power being pulled from our drive battery. Now we should also remember that approx .746 kW ( or 746 Watts ) is 1 hp (or 1 horse power ) so its not a insignificant amount IMO

Now at 110 kph I see approx 2.54 kW of power being used in B0. Subtract that .33 kW again gives us approx 2.21 kW of power just to "freewheel" those electric motors.

Now I put that freewheel in brackets purposely ie "freewheel" because there is still a little "drag" in those electric motors that Mitsubishi is not getting rid of completely in B0 it would seem.

An example is in Parallel mode at 110 kph on my PHEV I see approx 4.4 - 4.87 kW. Subtract that .33 kW again so approx 4.07 to 4.54 kW of power Mitsubishi provide to the electric motors to get rid of the drag of them at speed.

Why am showing such varied amount above ie 4.4 - 4.87 kW. It is because I am looking at two different gauges on the EVbatmon app. One is Power out ( power from or to the drive battery ) and another is Gen power (Generator power) and I am trying to memorise them (to write them down later) while driving by myself and they are varying a small amount all the time even on the very flat road I drive to measure them.

I have also not mentioned there are some losses in the conversion of DC to AC here and we can talk about that later as well if you like.

Now I have again purposely kept this reasonably non technical, I hope :? , in nature for this General section of the forum. For example I am trying not bring up terms like Back emf in electric motors ect to make it easier for us all to understand. Please do not frightened of those power terms I used like kW or watts or hp. Being scared to show your ignorance of such matters is quite normal IMHO but you should try and fight that impulse and ask questions. We were all beginners once.

So hopefully I have helped some people here learn a little more about the PHEV because I am still learning new "stuff" about it myself nearly all the time. :)

Ps Now I was in quite a hurry to write this, so I may have been a little rushed in my explanation, so again please ask those question if you do not understand me and I will try harder in my followup explanations. But as I have said before I am not a teacher as such. I am just a lowly engineer that has to deal with this sort of "stuff" nearly everyday of my professional life so it is hard for me to explain it easily for others. I really hope I did not stuff up too badly here in this topic. :?

Regards Trex.

Wow :eek: :oops: lots of edits in spelling and pronunciations to fix up in my rushed explanation. My bad.
 
Now as some would know I love "pretty pictures" :lol: and I mentioned the EV Cooling System above in my first post in this thread I will show these:

The PHEV's EV Cooling System,








Images from Mitsubishi Motors.

Regards Trex.
 
Trex, this is so 2018 :lol:

Please see my comments on below video.

Btw: the Power gauge is NOT wrong as it shows mechanical power, not electrical power :ugeek:
https://youtu.be/IQeMVTG77OQ
 
Trex said:
anko said:
Btw: the Power gauge is NOT wrong as it shows mechanical power, not electrical power

:lol: :lol:

Do you want to bet your balls on that statement. :ugeek: :lol:
You mean, you don't agree? :shock:

- edit - Neither do I, I think. IIRC, with both the throttle and brake pedals depressed, the power needle is not 0, where RPM (and thus mechanical power) is 0. But other than that, yeah I think it reflects mechanical power more than electrical power.
 
I though the there was only one "THE Power gauge". But if not clear: Center Display.

- edit - I now see you referred to MMCS explicitly. Missed that completely :oops: Personally, I never bothered with the MMCS dial, as my own tools give a much higher resolution (both in sample rate as in value), so I am not sure what I think about the MMCS dial.
 
B0 offers less resistance than even D.
Here’s how to test. While coasting, use the paddles to go to B0. Note the level of resistance in the blue end of the gaugue (both in cluster and mmcs). Now while coasting, hold the right paddle to shift to D. Note the gaugues again. More resistance, more regen energy.

D has a degree of regen capability built in. Closer to B2 or B1. Generally you should only use B0 at the end of a coast if you want to creep up in traffic without slowing down too much.

Try it yoursef. Coasting in B0 has no real benefits despite being recommended all across this forum.
 
ChrisMiller said:
D performs exactly the same as B2 - only the display is different :)

Exactly. So driving around in B0 is actually pointless unless you don’t want to avail of regen.. for whatever reason.
 
Antonymous said:
ChrisMiller said:
D performs exactly the same as B2 - only the display is different :)

Exactly. So driving around in B0 is actually pointless unless you don’t want to avail of regen.. for whatever reason.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. You make it sound like regenerative is a good thing. But, although far better than using friction brakes, regenerative braking is a bad thing. Like every other form of braking. Ideally, you want to keep your speed as constant as possible. And for many, to whom feathering the throttle is not something that comes natural, this is much easier in B0 than in B1 or higher.

In general, be careful with what you say. There are people out there that actually think regenerative braking helps you charge your car :mrgreen:
 
Now I wanted to bring this image in as it shows some of what I have been writing about.

Notice that red 2.4 kW at the top of the image (coming from the Generator) going into the front axle electric motor inverter to be converted into 2 kW (after losses) to the front electric motor to prevent it dragging.

Now IMO we can roughly double that 2.4 kW ie approx 4.8 kW to include the back axle electric motor to prevent it dragging as well when it (the back axle electric motor) is not required to climb hills etc.

Note This will vary with speed to some extant IMO.



Image from Mitsubishi Motors.
 
anko said:
Antonymous said:
ChrisMiller said:
D performs exactly the same as B2 - only the display is different :)

Exactly. So driving around in B0 is actually pointless unless you don’t want to avail of regen.. for whatever reason.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. You make it sound like regenerative is a good thing. But, although far better than using friction brakes, regenerative braking is a bad thing. Like every other form of braking. Ideally, you want to keep your speed as constant as possible. And for many, to whom feathering the throttle is not something that comes natural, this is much easier in B0 than in B1 or higher.

In general, be careful with what you say. There are people out there that actually think regenerative braking helps you charge your car :mrgreen:

And to underline Anko's point - I have several long gentle descents on my daily commute in Sarf Lundun. These I coast down in BO at the speed limit of 20 mph, whereas in a higher setting I would gradually fall below that speed to the annoyance of following traffic or even just come to a full stop!

However, at the other end of the scale, on Sunday, I found dealing with a series of hairpin type bends on a country road at night was easier in B5, because I was only having to use the one pedal to manage my speed and couldn't juggle the joystick/paddles and headlamp dipper at the same time. :lol:
 
I also find B5 a non brainer in towns and cities, at roadworks or any other stop start traffic, but on my commute to work (4 miles all downhill) I just cruise in B0 and use the paddles for any braking required. I usually gain about 3 miles of range like this and its so easy to drive-practically no pedals required.
 
I generally don't think in terms of "driving in Bx"
The shifters are near the steering wheel for a reason, use them as needed.
As I leave the traffic lights I usually have it in B0, and gradually shift up to B5, when approaching the next red lights. I like B0 as I can relax my right foot, while coasting.

While regenerative braking is a good thing, it's better to not put the electricity in the battery, if you need it right a way again. There are many variables that dictate what would be best for a particular circumstance. I like to think of the shifters as an extension of the gas peddle.
But if you don't want to be involved, the PHEV allows for that too.

YMMV,
Phevy
 
Phevy, Trex: I've had a lot of very slick roads to deal with this winter. I have been wondering about the allocation of Regen. With the S-AWC (which is overall excellent,) is Regen equal on all four wheels, all the time, or allocated depending on traction/slippage?

And, will S-AWC do anything in B-0 while coasting if slippage occurs? Asking for a friend ;)
 
dogman12 said:
Phevy, Trex: I've had a lot of very slick roads to deal with this winter. I have been wondering about the allocation of Regen. With the S-AWC (which is overall excellent,) is Regen equal on all four wheels, all the time, or allocated depending on traction/slippage?

And, will S-AWC do anything in B-0 while coasting if slippage occurs? Asking for a friend ;)

Hi dogman12,

Will start another topic about S-AWC here in General as its not really suitable for this topic and will help searching etc.

Regards Trex.
 
greendwarf said:
And to underline Anko's point - I have several long gentle descents on my daily commute in Sarf Lundun. These I coast down in BO at the speed limit of 20 mph, whereas in a higher setting I would gradually fall below that speed to the annoyance of following traffic or even just come to a full stop!
You do realise that you can "coast" (while still using power as Trex explained in his initial post) in any 'B' setting? It's just that you choose to lift your foot fully off the accelerator. This will of course slow you down faster in higher 'B' levels, as the throttle mapping changes the "coast" point in different 'B' levels. If you don't lift off but instead modulate the throttle, you can coast in higher 'B' numbers
 
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