Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:19 pm 
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wws wrote:
The Grapevine is always entertaining in its own right. Assuming you set "charge mode" some time before hitting the hill, so that there is plenty of battery power available? (That is the normal technique for a Chevy Volt with its "mountain mode". Though it is not needed as much with the Gen 2 Volt as the Gen 1 Volt did.)

There is plenty of energy in the batteries to make the climb if you use Charge mode or Save mode and keep at least 50% on the gauge before starting. However, power is another matter, and is lacking, even when drawing from the batteries at 5C. Mitsu didn't sufficiently oversize the ICE, and the car beats the hell out of its batteries as a result. It has trouble maintaining 90 mph up the Grapevine even with the accelerator pedal floored. My friend reported that his 2016 Cayenne S E-Hybrid can go up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with its ICE barely even breaking a sweat and doing 2000 RPM, and not drawing or using any power from its batteries at all. The trade-offs with that car, which I didn't like, were both the lack of the HOV sticker in California as well as the fact that it has a 10.8 kWh battery and only goes 12-14 miles in EV mode (compared to the Outlander's 12 kWh and 22-28 miles). That's what happens when you push all of the power from the batteries and motors through a mechanical transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.


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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:44 pm 
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STS134 wrote:
wws wrote:
The Grapevine is always entertaining in its own right. Assuming you set "charge mode" some time before hitting the hill, so that there is plenty of battery power available? (That is the normal technique for a Chevy Volt with its "mountain mode". Though it is not needed as much with the Gen 2 Volt as the Gen 1 Volt did.)

There is plenty of energy in the batteries to make the climb if you use Charge mode or Save mode and keep at least 50% on the gauge before starting. However, power is another matter, and is lacking, even when drawing from the batteries at 5C. Mitsu didn't sufficiently oversize the ICE, and the car beats the hell out of its batteries as a result. It has trouble maintaining 90 mph up the Grapevine even with the accelerator pedal floored.


If the Outlander can actually do 90 mph climbing from Tejon southbound, that is pretty good! I've not driven our Volt over the Grapevine yet. Supposedly it barely needs Mountain Mode to avoid the dreaded "propulsion power reduced" issues - whereas the Gen 1 Volt definitely did.


One of the things I've noticed about the Grapevine in my other GM vehicles is that it is one of the few places where tranny temps can get pretty high. I've seen this while monitoring the temps via a OBDII scan guage. Not sure if it is due to heat generated from torque converter slippage (though I always downshift to keep it locked), or high coolant temperature in general due to the climb - since the tranny cooler is embedded within the radiator, or both. If I did that drive a lot, I'd add more tranny cooling to the system.

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My friend reported that his 2016 Cayenne S E-Hybrid can go up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with its ICE barely even breaking a sweat and doing 2000 RPM, and not drawing or using any power from its batteries at all. The trade-offs with that car, which I didn't like, were both the lack of the HOV sticker in California as well as the fact that it has a 10.8 kWh battery and only goes 12-14 miles in EV mode (compared to the Outlander's 12 kWh and 22-28 miles). That's what happens when you push all of the power from the batteries and motors through a mechanical transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.


Massive difference in price too. The German PHEVs seem to have added electric motors and batteries as an afterthought to their otherwise very conventional drive trains. It allows them to work through some European regulations, but doesn't appeal to me as the best way to do a PHEV.

But what to buy? Now that the kids are out of the house, I'd like to downsize my old Suburban. Still need something that can haul stuff and do some mild off-roading. A Model X with air suspension might do, but seems a bit extravagant. Model Y probably won't do. What I'd really like is an Equinox-like (or slightly larger) vehicle with a Voltec drivetrain up front, and rear electric motor like the Outlander PHEV has. Unfortunately GM seems to be done with Voltec.

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:11 pm 
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STS134 wrote:
My friend reported that his 2016 Cayenne S E-Hybrid can go up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with its ICE barely even breaking a sweat and doing 2000 RPM, and not drawing or using any power from its batteries at all

So a Cayenne has a stronger engine then an Outlander. Who would have expected that :o

Before we start writing letters to Mitsubishi, maybe we could compare a VW Passat with a Panamera or try an up hill drag race with a Renault Zoe against a Taycan in eco mode and see if they do any better :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:11 pm 
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KWh wrote:
STS134 wrote:
My friend reported that his 2016 Cayenne S E-Hybrid can go up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with its ICE barely even breaking a sweat and doing 2000 RPM, and not drawing or using any power from its batteries at all

So a Cayenne has a stronger engine then an Outlander. Who would have expected that :o

Before we start writing letters to Mitsubishi, maybe we could compare a VW Passat with a Panamera or try an up hill drag race with a Renault Zoe against a Taycan in eco mode and see if they do any better :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:14 pm 
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STS134 wrote:
wws wrote:
The Grapevine is always entertaining in its own right. Assuming you set "charge mode" some time before hitting the hill, so that there is plenty of battery power available? (That is the normal technique for a Chevy Volt with its "mountain mode". Though it is not needed as much with the Gen 2 Volt as the Gen 1 Volt did.)

There is plenty of energy in the batteries to make the climb if you use Charge mode or Save mode and keep at least 50% on the gauge before starting. However, power is another matter, and is lacking, even when drawing from the batteries at 5C. Mitsu didn't sufficiently oversize the ICE, and the car beats the hell out of its batteries as a result. It has trouble maintaining 90 mph up the Grapevine even with the accelerator pedal floored. My friend reported that his 2016 Cayenne S E-Hybrid can go up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with its ICE barely even breaking a sweat and doing 2000 RPM, and not drawing or using any power from its batteries at all. The trade-offs with that car, which I didn't like, were both the lack of the HOV sticker in California as well as the fact that it has a 10.8 kWh battery and only goes 12-14 miles in EV mode (compared to the Outlander's 12 kWh and 22-28 miles). That's what happens when you push all of the power from the batteries and motors through a mechanical transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.
Isn't the whole point of the car that the batteries are the main power source?

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:46 pm 
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wws wrote:
If the Outlander can actually do 90 mph climbing from Tejon southbound, that is pretty good! I've not driven our Volt over the Grapevine yet. Supposedly it barely needs Mountain Mode to avoid the dreaded "propulsion power reduced" issues - whereas the Gen 1 Volt definitely did.


I've never been able to maintain 90 up that hill. I think I did around 80-85 last time, with the accelerator to the floor. I've never had the time, or the motivation, to tell the rest of my family to get out of the car at the Grapevine exit and stay there with all of the stuff I removed from the cargo area so that I could see what the car could do without being burdened down by extra weight. It certainly can't do it with several hundred pounds of extra weight in the back. On the other hand, my friend's Cayenne went up the Grapevine @ 90 mph with the ICE at 2000 rpm when it had 4 people plus an entire cargo hold full of strollers and suitcases for a week at Disneyland.

wws wrote:
Massive difference in price too. The German PHEVs seem to have added electric motors and batteries as an afterthought to their otherwise very conventional drive trains. It allows them to work through some European regulations, but doesn't appeal to me as the best way to do a PHEV.


Yeah, but I do wish the Outlander had at least a 200-250 PS ICE though, plus a gearbox to keep it in the optimal rev range on the highway. Then it wouldn't have to beat up the batteries so much. 333 PS ICE (what's in the Cayenne) seems like overkill, although it's really pathetic that the Cayenne and the Outlander get about the same gas mileage on I-5 when cruising at 90 mph, with the Outlander's mpg being severely hurt by its lack of a gearbox and its undersized ICE being asked to operate at a far too high power output for efficiency. I'll reset the driving data meter next time I do this trip so that I can measure the efficiency along I-5 through the San Joaquin Valley only, but I wouldn't be surprised to see numbers around 16-20 mpg and I wouldn't be surprised if the Cayenne actually did better there.

jaapv wrote:
Isn't the whole point of the car that the batteries are the main power source?

At lower speeds on city streets and in stop-and-go traffic, the batteries should be the sole power source. But at high speeds on the freeway? That honestly just beats up the batteries for no good reason. The crazy thing about this car is that if you drive up the Grapevine at say 40-50 mph, it'll go the entire way in EV mode as long as you don't exceed 60 kW of power demand (I'm actually not sure what speed you can go limited to 60 kW of power but the point is, limit the power and it'll stay in EV mode the whole way up). It'll drain the entire battery at 5C in this manner! And then Mitsu has the nerve to tell people to not over use CHAdeMO!!! How about not beating up the batteries in normal driving if they're going to hound people over their charging habits? I guarantee you that doing that entire hill at 5C and pushing power into the batteries at 3-4C coming down hills on the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada is MUCH worse than CHAdeMO which never exceeds 60A/20kW.


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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:16 pm 
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I think it is totally ridiculous to compare with the Cayenne. The thing is nearly triple the price at 110.000 Euro. Buy cheap and demand expensive... :roll:
It is a totally different concept too, being driven by the ICE with the EV part auxiliary. The Mitsubishi is just the other way around. The whole point is the lack of a gearbox, making it an electrically driven car with the ICE just giving an extra push when needed. The different EV ranges say it all.
I get the feeling that you bought the wrong car in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:34 pm 
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jaapv wrote:
I think it is totally ridiculous to compare with the Cayenne. The thing is nearly triple the price at 110.000 Euro. Buy cheap and demand expensive... :roll:
It is a totally different concept too, being driven by the ICE with the EV part auxiliary. The Mitsubishi is just the other way around. The whole point is the lack of a gearbox, making it an electrically driven car with the ICE just giving an extra push when needed. The different EV ranges say it all.
I get the feeling that you bought the wrong car in the first place.

Nah, every time I do my usual commute, if there's a traffic jam on the freeway and I don't need to use the ICE, I do appreciate the extra EV range. And it's not like things are so great on the Porsche side of things either. Check this out: https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-9y0 ... st15717599

I do still think the Outlander would be a better car with a gearbox plus an ICE that was twice as powerful though. They could literally keep the same architecture (motors connected directly to wheels at the front and rear) otherwise. The gearbox would go between the clutch and the wheels in Parallel mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:38 pm 
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STS134 wrote:
wws wrote:
Massive difference in price too. The German PHEVs seem to have added electric motors and batteries as an afterthought to their otherwise very conventional drive trains. It allows them to work through some European regulations, but doesn't appeal to me as the best way to do a PHEV.


Yeah, but I do wish the Outlander had at least a 200-250 PS ICE though, plus a gearbox to keep it in the optimal rev range on the highway. Then it wouldn't have to beat up the batteries so much. 333 PS ICE (what's in the Cayenne) seems like overkill, although it's really pathetic that the Cayenne and the Outlander get about the same gas mileage on I-5 when cruising at 90 mph, with the Outlander's mpg being severely hurt by its lack of a gearbox and its undersized ICE being asked to operate at a far too high power output for efficiency. I'll reset the driving data meter next time I do this trip so that I can measure the efficiency along I-5 through the San Joaquin Valley only, but I wouldn't be surprised to see numbers around 16-20 mpg and I wouldn't be surprised if the Cayenne actually did better there.


By comparison, the (Gen 2) Volts electric motors can draw 120 kW from its 18.3 kWh pack and max regen is about 60 kW.

The Outlander PHEV is sorta similar to a Gen 1 Volt in that when not driving in EV only, it uses a series hybrid configuration at lower speeds/loads. But on the highway then it can directly clutch the ICE through the planetary gearbox to the wheels. Gen 2 Volt is different. There is no series hybrid mode. There are three different "charge sustaining" modes - only one directly connects the ICE to the wheels with no "gearing". The other two modes clutch the electric motors such that they can add/subtract ICE RPMs to allow things to run more optimally.

I really wish GM would have expanded the Voltec concept to more vehicles. But... they haven't. I think the recent Honda Clarity PHEV is somewhat similar. So maybe we'll see more from them.

Quote:
jaapv wrote:
Isn't the whole point of the car that the batteries are the main power source?

At lower speeds on city streets and in stop-and-go traffic, the batteries should be the sole power source. But at high speeds on the freeway? That honestly just beats up the batteries for no good reason. The crazy thing about this car is that if you drive up the Grapevine at say 40-50 mph, it'll go the entire way in EV mode as long as you don't exceed 60 kW of power demand (I'm actually not sure what speed you can go limited to 60 kW of power but the point is, limit the power and it'll stay in EV mode the whole way up). It'll drain the entire battery at 5C in this manner! And then Mitsu has the nerve to tell people to not over use CHAdeMO!!! How about not beating up the batteries in normal driving if they're going to hound people over their charging habits? I guarantee you that doing that entire hill at 5C and pushing power into the batteries at 3-4C coming down hills on the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada is MUCH worse than CHAdeMO which never exceeds 60A/20kW.


The Outlander should have _at least_ a 16 kWh battery pack for the U.S. market. That to capture the entire Federal Tax Credit. A larger pack would obviously give better electric range and lessen the impact of higher charging and discharging rates as well. (Mitsu managed to squeeze a 16 kWh pack into the tiny i-MiEV, so why not the Outlander?)

Maybe we'll at least see the upgraded drivetrain that other markets have, soon. But with other options becoming available in the next year or two, will it be too little too late?

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 Post subject: Re: Abused CHADEMO
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:35 am 
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Unless you're very lucky indeed, with any car you might buy there are almost certainly a list of half a dozen (or more) items that could be 'improved' to make it better suit your personal needs. But each such list of improvements will contain different items for each customer (particularly the case for the 'global' models we see today). There aren't many areas in the world where "ability to cruise at 90 mph on a 5-mile long 6% grade" would be high on the list.

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