Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:54 pm 
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Location: Saratoga, CA
ChrisMiller wrote:
I live in a very hilly area - no mountains (this is England), but 15% grades for a mile or so every few miles - and my guessometer rarely shows a range much over 20 miles. I normally get about 2.5 miles/kWh (measured as the 'cost of charging' by the car) - for the last few months I've only been doing very short trips. The display in the car reliably shows 3.0 miles/kWh, I don't know if that's a difference between the number of kWh I put in from the mains and the amount actually stored in the battery?

The difference isn't that much. The OBC should be at least 80% efficient, and is likely 85-90% efficient. If we take the lower end of that range, that puts you only up to 1.8 mi/kWh, which still seems rather low. Short trips shouldn't really make a difference in the efficiency of a vehicle operating in EV mode. It's not like it has to heat up an engine block and all of the coolant.


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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:37 am
Posts: 553
Location: Bucks
Except my short trips always involve returning via a mile of 15% grade (and going down doesn't allow me to do any charging if I've already got a full battery). My bad for choosing a house at the top of a hill. :)

If you do the calculation properly (as I explained, my trip was 170 miles, and 15-20 miles of that were on electric power) it's just a whisker over 2 miles/kWh. And before you explain to me that I'm using too much petrol, that was a motorway trip at 80 mph most of the way.

I'm by no means convinced that the on-board charger is very efficient (rather than the cheapest design the manufacturer can get away with). Indeed a 2016 study carried out in Denmark (PDF) testing popular BEVs found the OBC to have a loss of between 15 and 40(!)% - which would be consistent with my observed difference between the energy I put in from the mains and the electrical energy the car claims to be using from the battery.

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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:12 am 
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ChrisMiller wrote:
Except my short trips always involve returning via a mile of 15% grade (and going down doesn't allow me to do any charging if I've already got a full battery). My bad for choosing a house at the top of a hill. :)


Why don't you routinely just stop your charging at 80%? Then on days when you know you will do a longer journey you can top it up.


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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:12 am 
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Location: Bucks
I can't see a way of doing so automatically, and I've better things to do than sit for hours watching a progress bar. :) Anyway, it's second order stuff, I'm already very happy with the money the car has saved me.

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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:48 am 
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Location: Saratoga, CA
ChrisMiller wrote:
Except my short trips always involve returning via a mile of 15% grade (and going down doesn't allow me to do any charging if I've already got a full battery). My bad for choosing a house at the top of a hill. :)

Mitsubishi's design really sucks. It will top off the batteries to 4.10V/cell when you're charging, unless you interrupt it manually. Once the batteries are at 4.10V/cell, the regenerative braking doesn't work, and it causes unnecessary wear to the friction brakes. They really need to introduce an automated charge limit of say 80-100% of the maximum possible, similar to what Tesla does. If you push a Tesla all the way to 100%, the regenerative brakes don't work either, but you also aren't forced to top off the batteries to 100% all the time and in fact they recommend that you don't.

Protip: if you have a EVSE with a timer on it, and you can estimate kWh per bar on the battery gauge, you can get a rough estimate of how many kWh you'll need to get from wherever the gauge was when you pulled into your garage up to say 12-14 bars. Then you can set the timer to charge for that amount of time before cutting off. I only push my batteries to 100% about once every 2-4 weeks, both to increase longevity of the batteries and because I don't like the way the car behaves with the batteries full (have to hit the brakes a lot harder to stop).

ChrisMiller wrote:
If you do the calculation properly (as I explained, my trip was 170 miles, and 15-20 miles of that were on electric power) it's just a whisker over 2 miles/kWh. And before you explain to me that I'm using too much petrol, that was a motorway trip at 80 mph most of the way.

I'm by no means convinced that the on-board charger is very efficient (rather than the cheapest design the manufacturer can get away with). Indeed a 2016 study carried out in Denmark (PDF) testing popular BEVs found the OBC to have a loss of between 15 and 40(!)% - which would be consistent with my observed difference between the energy I put in from the mains and the electrical energy the car claims to be using from the battery.

653 mi total - 155 miles on gasoline = 498 electric miles. You consumed 249 kWh of electricity so that's 2.0 mi/kWh. Now, I'm assuming that this was kWh from the mains right? What is your estimate of the losses through the OBC + the roundtrip through the battery itself, in percent of power consumed from the mains?

Also, back to main topic: after you did this trip, how long did it take before you saw the message that the car was consuming old fuel? Was it literally the next time you started the car?


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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Location: Bucks
I made the 170 mile trip on 17th June, which was 2/3 days before the 91-day (if that's what it is) timer was due to expire. I wanted to see if it was possible the message wouldn't be triggered if a significant amount of fuel had been used, even though the tank hadn't been topped up. And I thought this had worked when no message had appeared after a week.

I got the 'consume old fuel' message 11 days after my trip.

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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:34 am
Posts: 10
Location: Southwater, Horsham, UK
I too have just had the ICE running continuously after start-up with the same message as above. The tank is full and hardly been in use thanks to lockdown so, after reading the posts here, I knew what it was all about and decided to just run it down to 1/4 full then put in 15 litres. Then I realised it was booked in for a service at the dealers in 5 days time. As I wanted it to go in with nothing unusual displaying and there was no chance of running the tank down to the appropriate level before then I decided on the battery terminal temporary fix.
It worked nicely but I would like to caution anyone going down the same route that afterwards the boot lid (which was open) would not close or the doors lock from the key fob. I had to close the boot manually, start the car, switch off then everything responded normally to all functions from the key fob.
I'm now going to run mostly on the ICE until I can put some fuel into the tank. At which stage I will not fill it past 30 litres unless I'm planning a long drive.

Thank you to all who posted above, you put me on the right track and saved me a bucket load of worrying.

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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am
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ChrisMiller wrote:
I can't see a way of doing so automatically, and I've better things to do than sit for hours watching a progress bar. :) Anyway, it's second order stuff, I'm already very happy with the money the car has saved me.


yes, it's a pity that the timer option doesn't have an option to say charge until x%, rather than just timed charge until hh:mm or charge to full.


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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:09 am 
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Location: Saratoga, CA
UKBoB wrote:
I too have just had the ICE running continuously after start-up with the same message as above. The tank is full and hardly been in use thanks to lockdown so, after reading the posts here, I knew what it was all about and decided to just run it down to 1/4 full then put in 15 litres.

When was the last time you refueled the vehicle? And when did the ICE start up automatically the first time?


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 Post subject: Re: To consume old fuel, refuel 15L or more...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:34 am
Posts: 10
Location: Southwater, Horsham, UK
STS134 wrote:
When was the last time you refueled the vehicle? And when did the ICE start up automatically the first time?


15th Feb filled up, ICE started on 28th June. Car had been stood unused for 6 days before start up.

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