littlescrote
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:21 am

You both have personal views that are not shared by many global corporations that have a lot more to lose than you do.

greendwarf
Posts: 2263
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:11 pm

History is littered with businesses that "get it wrong" - I repeat, Betamax. This was a technically better product but that didn't help it survive. :ugeek:

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:28 am

littlescrote wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:21 am
You both have personal views that are not shared by many global corporations that have a lot more to lose than you do.
It will be interesting watching "global corporations" defying the laws of physics :roll:

You say it's a "personal view", but it's just plain facts. Unless my sources have all got it wrong and you can prove my facts are actually incorrect. You'll be saying the Climate Emergency is a "personal view" next...
2015 GX4hs since 03/18
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littlescrote
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:47 am

greendwarf wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:11 pm
History is littered with businesses that "get it wrong" - I repeat, Betamax. This was a technically better product but that didn't help it survive. :ugeek:
Absolutely
ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:28 am

It will be interesting watching "global corporations" defying the laws of physics :roll:

You say it's a "personal view", but it's just plain facts. Unless my sources have all got it wrong and you can prove my facts are actually incorrect. You'll be saying the Climate Emergency is a "personal view" next...
What laws of physics? What facts? Just because the end product of electrical power by charging and discharging of batteries directly is more efficient than hydrogen electrolysis and power generation (currently), doesn't mean that hydrogen does not have its place - it will. It's not only about efficiencies, but also capacity, distribution, refuel/recharge times, power density etc etc. If you think batteries are going to be the only solution, you're very much wrong.

Just as an example, how many real truck manufacturers are looking at making battery powered trucks? How many battery powered trains do you expect to see?

Please don't insult me with statements about the climate emergency. Nowhere have I said, or even hinted, that I don't think that's real.

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:52 am

Using hydrogen as an intermediate fuel requires twice the generation capacity that simply using batteries requires. That is the fact that you seem to be ignoring. Who is going to pay for double the extra generation capacity just so that people can use hydrogen instead of batteries? The extra cost involved in supplying and running a hydrogen infrastructure makes it simply unfeasible for general use unless there is a breakthrough. As I said, there may be niche areas where the extra cost can be justified, but the mass market won't pay for the extra Gigawatts for everyone.
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littlescrote
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:34 am

ThudnBlundr wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:52 am
Using hydrogen as an intermediate fuel requires twice the generation capacity that simply using batteries requires. That is the fact that you seem to be ignoring. Who is going to pay for double the extra generation capacity just so that people can use hydrogen instead of batteries? The extra cost involved in supplying and running a hydrogen infrastructure makes it simply unfeasible for general use unless there is a breakthrough. As I said, there may be niche areas where the extra cost can be justified, but the mass market won't pay for the extra Gigawatts for everyone.
I haven't ignored it - I've directly said it! But in my opinion, that gap will reduce as electrolysis becomes more efficient. I don't see mass transportation of goods and people (trucks, trains, planes, shipping) as niche, and I don't see any of those widely using batteries instead of fuel cells.

In a lot of cases, the 'extra gigawatts' are free anyway, that's the point! When there's excess renewable power, we need to do something to store it and to some extent it doesn't matter how inefficient that process is as you are more or less getting something for nothing.

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 741
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Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:29 am

Electrolysis has been around since the discovery of electricity. I'm not sure how it's magically going to get more efficient - I thought it was pretty close to its theoretical limit anyway. While fuel cells are new, I'm not sure how much more there is to come with their efficiency. And while you could use excess generation to produce hydrogen, you're still running at ½-efficiency. Far better to store the excess generation in grid-scale batteries and not throw away 60%!
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mellobob
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:34 am

Doesn't this whole electricity discussion depend on just how the electricity you are using to charge you car comes from and the cost of the grid which delivers it? I've read that the current grid is not capable of transmitting the amount of juice that would be needed if every car, magically, became an EV. And, if that electricity is produced using coal or natural gas ... well, then it becomes moot as to the true benefits of plug-and-charge.

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:07 am

I think the grid capacity depends on your location/country. I think that most places in the UK would be able to accommodate the extra capacity for EV charging with some time of use tariffs taking the edge of the peak. But the population density is quite high here, far higher than in BC or most of Canada. That's why Tesla's mega-battery in Australia was useful, as it evened out the delivery curve and reduced transitory costs by a ridiculous amount
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littlescrote
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Ran out of gas but depleted battery got me home

Wed May 05, 2021 3:22 am

mellobob wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:34 am
Doesn't this whole electricity discussion depend on just how the electricity you are using to charge you car comes from and the cost of the grid which delivers it? I've read that the current grid is not capable of transmitting the amount of juice that would be needed if every car, magically, became an EV. And, if that electricity is produced using coal or natural gas ... well, then it becomes moot as to the true benefits of plug-and-charge.
But every car cannot magically become an EV, it takes time for the adoption during which any improvements will get made if any are necessary. In a lot of cases, no extra capacity is needed as the peaks are already catered for and EV charging can smooth those out.
ThudnBlundr wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:29 am
Electrolysis has been around since the discovery of electricity. I'm not sure how it's magically going to get more efficient - I thought it was pretty close to its theoretical limit anyway. While fuel cells are new, I'm not sure how much more there is to come with their efficiency. And while you could use excess generation to produce hydrogen, you're still running at ½-efficiency. Far better to store the excess generation in grid-scale batteries and not throw away 60%!
Electrolysis and fuel cells are not going to magically get any more efficient - they are already getting more efficient through hard work of chemists and engineers!

We don't have grid scale batteries, and maybe never will have on the scale needed. They are not a panacea, anymore than I'm suggesting that fuel cells and electrolysis are a panacea. They are all part of THE answer, not simply AN answer in themselves. Please recognise that rather than being fixated on one technology that you think is the answer to all of the planet's problems.

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