Cold Weather Performance - North American 2023

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

Help Support Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Hey guys - I’ve been following this thread, I also own a 23 model myself. My work is designing lithium systems for military drones and RV’s, so I’ve been compiling some notes on the Outlander.

Regretfully, every time you drive your Outlander using the EV battery rather than the gas engine in below 32F degrees temperatures, you are inflicting permanent damage called Plating to the lithium cells. This is exactly why the Outlander suffers from more battery change-outs and poor health than any other plug-in.

Plating occurs below 32 degrees. As the electrolyte thickens from cold weather and becomes more dense as temperatures lower, it prevents the ions from traveling between the anodes and many ions become permanently lodged in the electrolyte. As more and more ions become stuck, it forms an insulator which is called plating that permanently damages the batteries health and capacity. Here’s some typical limits for cold weather operation.

Charging - Once lithium cell temperatures reach 32F degrees, charging the battery at any level is damaging the cells.

Discharging - Once lithium temperatures reach 0F degrees, discharging the battery an any level is damaging the cells.

While Mitsubishi is well aware of these temperature guidelines, they choose not to install a battery warmer on most Outlander models, since it would further reduce the battery range to power a PTC heater while driving. However I found there are some Outlander's equipped with two different types of PTC heaters in colder regions. In any case, instead of a PTC heater, they instead use a “Winter Protocol” to run the gas engine during start-up and while driving in cold weather.

Once the Outlander engine starts and warms to 150 degrees, the BMS then powers up the engine / generator to provide the majority of power needed to drive the car. This protocol warms the cabin with coolant heat and reduces most if not all the load from the lithium battery, thereby preventing permanent “plating” damage to the cells.

That said, do not defeat or avoid running the engine in winter. In fact, in cold temperatures your should avoid using the battery when ever possible. The engine in the Outlander is there for two reasons: when you run out of battery and when it’s too cold for the battery to operate.

Regretfully there is hundreds of threads where Outlander owners spend days talking and planning on how not to use the hybrid engine. There’s even threads on how to disable the engine during winter by removing relays and fuses to inhibit an engine which they paid thousands for.

I’m not sure where this mentality started to buy a Hybrid car with a limited battery and gas engine then waste electric range (fuel) lugging around an gas engine and transaxle weighing hundreds of pounds that’s never to be used.
These owners would be better off buying an Kia EV6 for the same money and have 325 miles of range and never worry about the engine starting and equipped with a PTC heater.

Finally, the Heat pump in the 23 Outlander only provides heat just below 32F. The new heat pump system is not really a "typical heat pump" since there is no condenser in the Outlander cabin. The way it heats the cabin is the high pressure side (hot) of the compressor is ran though a heat-exchanger which warms the engine coolant which is then circulated thru the cabin. This way when the engine starts nothing changes, as the engine warms the coolant to provide heat, the heat pump is turned off. I ran a test using an OBD reader with the gas engine off, I turned on the heat pump to 85 degrees and noted the engine temperature was 73.4 degrees, in 15 minutes the heat pump heated the engine to 123.8 degrees F. If you look on the passenger side under the hood you can see the small heat exchanger on the firewall with both AC and heater lines attached, you’ll also see where where the heat exchanger coolant lines enter the cabin.

By the way I’m writing a detailed article on the Outlander to include cold weather driving and many other aspects of the Outlander PHEV which should be completed in a week or so. Enjoy your great Outlander!

Best Regards - Mike

out1.jpg
 
I’m not sure where this mentality started to buy a Hybrid car with a limited battery and gas engine then waste electric range (fuel) lugging around an gas engine

Not sure if you're intentionally being coy, conflating regular hybrid car ownership with plug-ins...? Obviously buyers of regular hybrids don't know/care, happy to let the car blend its power sources as needed. But plug-ins are *specifically* marketed as providing "up to X mi/km of electric-only driving". In other words, operating like an EV for 100% of driving within X distance, with the added bonus of zero range anxiety. Nobody is paying a premium for PHEVs just to listen to those nasty little 4-bangers wheezing away, spewing noxious poison into their garages etc, on *every single short trip* around town.

Otherwise, lots of great details about lithium battery chemistry. But I don't understand how a lithium battery in a PHEV like ours is different than in an EV, in terms of operating in cold temperatures. Are you saying that the main problem with Outlander PHEV is lack of robust battery heating? I certainly agree that their thermal management design is weak, not quite early Nissan Leaf bad, but definitely cutting corners. I've seen my battery temperature gauge already maxed out, in cool ambient temps, just from heavy discharge (climbing a hill), it's definitely alarming. Might've been better if they didn't even provide a battery temp display🤣
 
It has to do with battery capacity, or to be more precise the ratio between the power you are charging/discharging into the battery and it's capacity.
In a 60 kWh battery you have more electrode surface than in a 20 kWh battery, the current will be spread around on a greater surface, and the moving electron density in the electrolyte will be lower. Discharging 50 kW from a 60 kWh battery will be less "aggressive" than discharging those 50 kW from a 20 kWh battery.

In practice the battery in a Phev can be designed to handle a higher current than a regular EV battery, but there is still a limit on how far you can go. EVs are just gentler on their batteries than Phevs.
 
LowOnCash said:
Well while I agree on lithium battery physics why you think is a better idea to fire the ICE for my 2km morning trip?
Just to start warming it up and turn it off even without reaching it's working temperature!?

BTW you correctly have said that charging the battery i cold is bad. So when the generator start providing the power to propel the vehicle what is happening with the excess power it provides... charging the battery with high current isn't it?

We can compare the battery health on my vehicle on which the ICE is killed most of the time during the winters, third winter already and the health of a regular user's PHEV battery with a similar mileage.

Regarding the heat pump on 23 model, does it have 2 heat-exchangers? Cause when it works like an AC the heat-exchanger under the hood won't work.

I did my homework and I bought what I want, an PHEV with a PTC heater on the battery and el. heater for the cabin that can preheat it even in -20F. The rest I modified to my needs - ICE kill switch.
 
Thanks for the replies - Certainly Mitsubishi isn't forcing the gas engine to run for no reason, it saves the battery from health issues. Each time you force or avoid running the gas engine - you shorten the life of the battery. All EV's regardless of battery size are effected by the same plating damage in winter.

The reason EV's are not effected as much as a PHEV is because 90% of them have a PTC heater for the battery where most Outlanders do not. Even when fast DC charging an EV, before the BMS allows the charge rate to reach maximum, it first turns on the EV's PTC heater. As the battery heats up from the heater (now powered by the charger) it increases the rate of charge. While I have not checked to see if it is allowed, you certainly do not want to DC fast charge in winter.

There's another very important reason. Higher discharge and charge levels in cold weather result in higher degrees of damage to the battery. Therefore, there is less stress on an EV's battery because it is almost 4 times larger than a small hybrid battery. So in simple terms, when you spread say a 40kw load to get the car moving in winter, a 20 kw pack has 75% higher loads on the cells than a 78kw pack because the larger EV pack is distributing the load to 75% more cells, so the amperage of each cell is lower causing less plating damage.

Regardless, every EV will reach a temperature point to where the battery is locked out to prevent damage. The beauty of a hybrid like the Outlander is we are not limited only to the battery, because we have that wonderful gas engine we all paid extra for to keep us warm and protect our battery.

On the question about the generator running, keep in mind when the generator is operating in a winter protocol, the current it produces is going directly to the load of the motors and not battery. The work is all done by the engine and generator, the HV battery is pretty just there for the ride and to start the gas engine.

Bottom line you have to run the gas engine so many hours each month to change out stale fuel, so why not use that fuel to protect your battery and long term investment.

Regards - Mike
 
Each time you force or avoid running the gas engine - you shorten the life of the battery.

Sure the little 20kwh battery gets abused by the big heavy PHEV. But the life/health of a PHEV battery isn't nearly as important as an EV. For example say our cold weather "abuse" causes a *horrible* 10% loss in range over 10yrs...so what, that's only 4 miles (compared to maybe 30mi range loss on an EV, if abused similarly).

I'd much rather enjoy driving my PHEV in silent EV mode 90% of the time, than suffer the ICE running *every single drive*. Even if after 10yrs of my "abuse" I can only go 34mi in EV instead of 38.

As someone else mentioned, short trips are very hard on an ICE too, especially in cold weather. I'd rather keep the ICE happy and healthy for longer trips.
 
Just want to add that I park the car in a garage. In the winter the battery will never be below freezing for my daily city driving.
So I do expect it to operate similar to my other EVs. The heat pump should be allowed to work below -15ºC. Would be nice if they could fix that issue.
Funny how my first generation Leaf only had 19 kWh of battery capacity remaining. I find it amazing that the new Outlander PHEV has similar range to that. So when you are driving around in EV mode and watching the charge level drop just imagine how you would feel if you didn't have the ICE to back you up. That was my challenge back then. We have come a long way in 12 years!
 
PJmacgee said:
Each time you force or avoid running the gas engine - you shorten the life of the battery.

Sure the little 20kwh battery gets abused by the big heavy PHEV. But the life/health of a PHEV battery isn't nearly as important as an EV. For example say our cold weather "abuse" causes a *horrible* 10% loss in range over 10yrs...so what, that's only 4 miles (compared to maybe 30mi range loss on an EV, if abused similarly).

I'd much rather enjoy driving my PHEV in silent EV mode 90% of the time, than suffer the ICE running *every single drive*. Even if after 10yrs of my "abuse" I can only go 34mi in EV instead of 38.

As someone else mentioned, short trips are very hard on an ICE too, especially in cold weather. I'd rather keep the ICE happy and healthy for longer trips.

Thanks for the replies - I understand most hybrid owners dislike starting the hybrid engine, but this thinking is not in the best interest for the health of the battery. It’s an uphill battle to use the battery in frigid weather. There are too many safeguards in place, which is why we have engine self-starting reduced power or even total shut-downs of the system when lithium batteries become cold-soaked.

There is no real difference of running the engine when the battery is depleted, or running the engine during below zero temperatures, you still have to listen to it run and buy gas. Listening to the engine on long trips is the same as listening to it in winter.

A good comparison to the Hybrid in winter is our home A/C heat pump system, It works fine in the 30’s F, but when it gets much below freezing, it just runs and makes no heat. So what do we do? we use the emergency heat function to get by until it warms up. Our Outlander's are in some way like a heat pump AC, they run fine above 32F but when it get around freezing we have to run the gas engine for cabin heat and to power the car. Keep in mind, It’s not like we have to run the engine all winter, it's only required when temperatures drop below 15 degrees F. At 32’s F, everything is somewhat normal except for winter losses, and even the heat pump works.

As I mentioned - Why lug around the weight of an engine, trans-axle and 12 gallons of fuel if it's never to be used, if an owner hates to hear his Outlander engine run, they would be better off buying an EV like a Kia EV-6 for around the same money with 325+ miles of range and never have to hear the engine run again or buy gas. We have an EV-6 in our family, hands down the best EV for the money. Unlike a Mercedes EQS or BMW I-4 the EV-6 is built from the ground up as an electric with super high range of 325-345 miles. It has an 800 volt system which charges from 10-80% in just 18 minutes. Here’s a few images of our EV6.

Regards - Mike

ev61.jpeg


ev62.jpeg
 
Why lug around the weight of an engine, trans-axle and 12 gallons of fuel if it's never to be used

In case you want to do a cross-country road trip, or drive out to the middle of nowhere every so often, and not have to worry about finding a charger. That's literally the whole raison d'etre of PHEV. I have a BEV and sometimes take it on long trips, but it's a hassle (and still impossible in some areas).

Now, maybe you are a 2+ car family, and you can have an EV for commiting, and a regular gas/hybrid for winter and road trips... But if you can only have 1 car, and do mostly short drives, PHEV is the ultimate compromise vehicle, for better or worse - at least for the next decade, until charging infrastructure (and/or battery tech) catches up.

Listening to the engine on long trips is the same as listening to it in winter.

Steady state cruising at highway speed (in mostly parallel mode) the engine noise is barely (if at all) noticable above normal road/wind noise. Compared to around town, all serial mode, with the ICE revving and wheezing as you speed up and slow down. Annoying and unnecessary.

For short trips, even in the cold, especially with garage-parked Outlanders, I don't think you're going to convince anyone who purposely (purposefully?) got the PHEV, that firing up the ICE (if it can be avoided) is worth any of the tradeoffs you've (correctly) detailed wrt long term battery health🤷‍♂️ But obviously everything is a tradeoff, and YMMV, as they say😉
 
PJmacgee said:
Why lug around the weight of an engine, trans-axle and 12 gallons of fuel if it's never to be used

In case you want to do a cross-country road trip, or drive out to the middle of nowhere every so often, and not have to worry about finding a charger. That's literally the whole raison d'etre of PHEV. I have a BEV and sometimes take it on long trips, but it's a hassle (and still impossible in some areas).

Now, maybe you are a 2+ car family, and you can have an EV for commiting, and a regular gas/hybrid for winter and road trips... But if you can only have 1 car, and do mostly short drives, PHEV is the ultimate compromise vehicle, for better or worse - at least for the next decade, until charging infrastructure (and/or battery tech) catches up.

Listening to the engine on long trips is the same as listening to it in winter.

Steady state cruising at highway speed (in mostly parallel mode) the engine noise is barely (if at all) noticable above normal road/wind noise. Compared to around town, all serial mode, with the ICE revving and wheezing as you speed up and slow down. Annoying and unnecessary.

For short trips, even in the cold, especially with garage-parked Outlanders, I don't think you're going to convince anyone who purposely (purposefully?) got the PHEV, that firing up the ICE (if it can be avoided) is worth any of the tradeoffs you've (correctly) detailed wrt long term battery health🤷‍♂️ But obviously everything is a tradeoff, and YMMV, as they say😉

Thanks for the reply - I could not agree with you more, we have an I-4 and and an EV-6 in out family and the primary reason there has always been a Hybrid in a garage since 2014 is for travel, which is why we have the Outlander.

Even thought the EV-6 can charge 10-80% in just over 15 minutes, I refuse to play that goofy planing, waiting, charging game. Once Walmart finishes their charging network it will be different for us non Tesla mortals.

For over a decade I have always told other EV owners the only safe place to charge is your home!

Mike
 
I was under the impression that the new Outlander PHEV gets the heat pump in the cold countries, such as Canada.
 
LowOnCash said:
It's interesting how you suggest some of us get a full BEV since we don't want the engine running for our 5min. winter trip but acknowledging long trips with full BEV as problematic.

Mitsubishi is forcing the engine in order to save the battery in cold weather you say but it seams you are not very familiar with the issue. It's understandable, you have a new 2023.
While the vehicle is relatively new the engine is not firing up all the time when it is under 5C (40F) but once it's a few years old Mitsubishi starts to protect the battery from the unbelievable 40F cold as there is no tomorrow. So they protect only the older batteries it seems.
I suspect that when the BMU sense that there is some voltage difference in the cells then the engine is starting to come up more often and often.

The big corporation mentality is better we be safe than sorry. It is a consumer product that have to withstand all kind of abuse so when every average Joe steps on it on the winter highway better that engine be warmed up. That's one of the reasons as well. I get it but since some of us know we wont be using the engine in our short commute we can live without our engines warming up for no reason.

I am killing the engine for my short trips third winter already and the battery health is as when I bought my2018 as 2 years old vehicle.
I am willing to compare my 85% battery health on 50k vehicle to any with the similar mileage with running winter engine saving the battery from the cold.
 
There are multiple reasons why the engine might decide to fire up, most not related to the battery health at all. And there are a few tricks to stop it from doing it.

One of the ways is just to use or remove all the fuel, the engine won't fire up.

In fact, the less the engine runs, the better the battery's health is. What's slowly killing the battery in the Mitsubishi is the engine charging it.
 
nrayanov said:
There are multiple reasons why the engine might decide to fire up, most not related to the battery health at all. And there are a few tricks to stop it from doing it.

One of the ways is just to use or remove all the fuel, the engine won't fire up.

Doesn't sound like a clever idea.

nrayanov said:
In fact, the less the engine runs, the better the battery's health is. What's slowly killing the battery in the Mitsubishi is the engine charging it.

Do you have evidence for that statement? It seems fairly logical that high charge rates are worse than low charge rates (e.g. granny charging), but is it charge rates that are "killing" it, or discharge rates?
 
How am I going to remove the fuel for my short morning commute!?
Running fuel pump without fuel is not a good idea either.

When in parallel mode not all engine power is transferred to the battery and it's not being charged fully as well.
Moreover once out of charge and engine running one don't have control over the rate of charge so no options there.
 
Not to mention, the whole reason the engine runs every 6 months is to protect the fuel system and all the seals.
 
Lon12 said:
Finally got a chance to test drive the new 2023 PHEV. Car had been cold soaked to -10ºC. In EV mode I could not get more than 45 kW of power to the motors. Acceleration was poor.
Does anyone else have a similar experience at those temperatures? My 2018 PHEV would always give the same electric power regardless of temperature.

Here are a few factors that could contribute to the reduced power and poor acceleration you experienced:

Battery Temperature: PHEVs typically have a temperature management system for their battery packs. In cold weather, the battery may take longer to warm up, which can affect its performance. Cold batteries have higher internal resistance, reducing the power output they can deliver.

Energy Management: PHEVs employ various energy management strategies to optimize efficiency and balance power demands between the electric motors and the internal combustion engine. In cold weather, the system may prioritize warming the cabin or maintaining the battery temperature, which can limit the power available to the electric motors.

Battery Capacity: Cold temperatures can cause a temporary reduction in the available capacity of the battery. This could lead to a reduced electric power output and shorter electric driving range.

Technology Advances: The 2023 PHEV model may have undergone updates or improvements compared to your 2018 PHEV. Manufacturers continuously refine their vehicles to enhance performance, efficiency, and reliability. It's possible that the newer model's powertrain system behaves differently in cold weather.
 
We are now getting many days with below 0 Celsius (32F) temperatures here in Atlantic Canada. I asked the head technician if my 2023 Outlander (bought this summer) had a battery heater. He said no, but in his training he was told it uses current heating to heat up the battery. By this I assume that Mitsubishi has designed the car to optimally use what current is available at a given time to get the battery to heat itself without incurring damage. Once the internal temperature rises, it can then draw more current.
I think I can see this in action. While on a cold morning with a fully charged car I can still force it into EV mode by pushing the start button without my foot on the brake, if I start the car normally, the ICE now comes on. But, in temperatures hovering around freezing, in my experience the ICE switches itself off after about 7km of driving (65k/h) and the car reverts to full EV. The same thing happens if I run it in Normal mode. So I think what is happening is that the car is drawing just enough energy from the battery to warm the battery up enough to work efficiently before switching to full EV mode. It can’t be charging much since the car is already fully charged. The EV range shown does not appear to change much until the car switches to EV mode. I will update my experience when the temperatures get well below freezing.
Regarding the heater, the Canadian car has an engine block heater plus the heat pump. The cooler the outside air, the less efficient the heat pump so I understand why they have both. However, to me the most important issue is how easily the car fogs up in our humid climate. Running the defrost only in heat mode is not enough to clear the windows, especially with several people in the car. To defog the window, one must run the heat pump in air conditioner mode (as a dehumidifier). A heat pump either runs hot or cold, it can’t do both, so one needs the ICE running to warm the block heater to heat the defroster air before it can be dehumidified to defog the vehicle. That sound bad, but on days when fogging isn’t an issue, so far I am able to run the vehicle comfortably in EV mode with only the heat pump running (after the initial ICE warm up period) in temperatures around freezing. This compares to what the Kia dealer told me about his wife’s hybrid Sonota. He said it runs continually in ICE mode from November to April just to heat the car.
 
I live in Iowa where the temps can drop to -20 F and hover around 0F during the day. I purchased a new 2023 PHEV last month. After readying all of these posts, I am concerned about this cold starting or lack there of! I understand if the main battery gets depleted and it is cold, the car's ICE may not start.

Can anyone tell me what mode I should use for long 2-300 mile trips during cold conditions ( cold conditions = anywhere between 0F to 32F)? I will not have capability to recharge the battery at the end of the trip. Should I run it in Normal mode for highway driving or in ICE/Charge Battery mode?
Thank you.
 
Back
Top