nrayanov
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

The Toyota Rav4 Prime similar to the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid has an eCVT that drives the front wheels and a weak electric motor driving the back wheels when needed. The AWD capabilities of the Hybrid and Prime Rav4 are limited compared to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. The Rav4 Prime's torque on the front wheels is so much, it will spin them always if you depress the pedal more than half-way through.

An eCVT (electronically controlled continuously variable transmission) is a type of transmission that uses a planetary gear set to connect the engine and wheels. The planetary gear set allows for a continuous range of gear ratios, rather than fixed gears found in traditional transmissions. The transmission uses electrically-controlled actuators to adjust the gear ratio smoothly, providing an infinite number of gear ratios. This allows for smooth and efficient operation, improving fuel economy and performance. It is commonly used in hybrid and electric vehicles. It's not cheap to build and on top of that when the battery is depleted the system constantly turns on and off the ICE (especially in the normal hybrid), which is not very good for the long-term usage of the batteries.

Now, compare this to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV single-speed transmission, which will utilize the ICE only at high-speeds when the engine is efficient, and at all other times drive both the front and back wheels with electric motors, offering a much better AWD capability.

So it really depends on what you are looking for exactly. If you don't care about mostly front-wheel biased systems and good AWD, and OK to wait between 12-24 months for a Toyota, it's worth it. Otherwise, just take the Outlander PHEV.
littlescrote
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

Most people that buy a hybrid probably don't care about 4WD capability, but do care about fuel efficiency.
AndyInOz
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:05 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

littlescrote wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:28 am Most people that buy a hybrid probably don't care about 4WD capability, but do care about fuel efficiency.
Now that's interesting.

For me the reasons for buying the PHEV went in this order:

1. Plug in hybrid (because 99% of my driving would be on electric)
2. Cabin height (because I'm tall)
3. Floor/seat height (because it is difficult for me to get down to the car seat in low cars due to a back injury)
4. Storage space (and ability to carry tall loads)
5. 4WD and ground clearance (re using and launching my kayak)
6. Didn't even consider litres per hundred kilometers

Note that my previous car (Barina GSi/Opel Corsa) had better fuel economy but that becomes irrelevant when most of your driving is on electric.

And again, you're talking about a difference of one litre per one hundred kilometres. That's a trivial difference in fuel economy.
2014 PHEV Aspire, Arctic Silver;
Black Interior;
Hayman Reese removable tow bar;
1.5kW Solar, grid connected.
Hasenphever
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:44 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

nrayanov wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:33 pm The Toyota Rav4 Prime similar to the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid has an eCVT that drives the front wheels and a weak electric motor driving the back wheels when needed. The AWD capabilities of the Hybrid and Prime Rav4 are limited compared to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. The Rav4 Prime's torque on the front wheels is so much, it will spin them always if you depress the pedal more than half-way through.

An eCVT (electronically controlled continuously variable transmission) is a type of transmission that uses a planetary gear set to connect the engine and wheels. The planetary gear set allows for a continuous range of gear ratios, rather than fixed gears found in traditional transmissions. The transmission uses electrically-controlled actuators to adjust the gear ratio smoothly, providing an infinite number of gear ratios. This allows for smooth and efficient operation, improving fuel economy and performance. It is commonly used in hybrid and electric vehicles. It's not cheap to build and on top of that when the battery is depleted the system constantly turns on and off the ICE (especially in the normal hybrid), which is not very good for the long-term usage of the batteries.

Now, compare this to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV single-speed transmission, which will utilize the ICE only at high-speeds when the engine is efficient, and at all other times drive both the front and back wheels with electric motors, offering a much better AWD capability.

So it really depends on what you are looking for exactly. If you don't care about mostly front-wheel biased systems and good AWD, and OK to wait between 12-24 months for a Toyota, it's worth it. Otherwise, just take the Outlander PHEV.
Great explanation on the difference between the Outlander and RAV4 transmissions.

Knowing that, why might the Outlander PHEV fuel economy be rated higher than the ICE version, while the RAV4 Prime is rated lower than its ICE version?
littlescrote
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:52 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

AndyInOz wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:32 pm
littlescrote wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:28 am Most people that buy a hybrid probably don't care about 4WD capability, but do care about fuel efficiency.
Now that's interesting.

For me the reasons for buying the PHEV went in this order:

1. Plug in hybrid (because 99% of my driving would be on electric)
2. Cabin height (because I'm tall)
3. Floor/seat height (because it is difficult for me to get down to the car seat in low cars due to a back injury)
4. Storage space (and ability to carry tall loads)
5. 4WD and ground clearance (re using and launching my kayak)
6. Didn't even consider litres per hundred kilometers

Note that my previous car (Barina GSi/Opel Corsa) had better fuel economy but that becomes irrelevant when most of your driving is on electric.

And again, you're talking about a difference of one litre per one hundred kilometres. That's a trivial difference in fuel economy.
Good summary, and is similar to my reasons, but I think that actually your number 1 priority kinda overlaps with number 6. By choosing to run largely in electric, your average fuel consumption will be low, even if the fuel consumption when actually consuming fuel may be high. I do most of my journeys on electric only so when I do the longer journeys that have relatively poor fuel consumption compared to other choices that I could have made, it's worth the sacrifice.
nrayanov
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

Hasenphever wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:19 pm
Great explanation on the difference between the Outlander and RAV4 transmissions.

Knowing that, why might the Outlander PHEV fuel economy be rated higher than the ICE version, while the RAV4 Prime is rated lower than its ICE version?
You are welcome.

If you quote the exact numbers you are talking about I could provide a little bit more insight.
2018gt
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:40 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

I have driven the (US model, I’m in Seattle) 2023 PHEV only once, but have owned a 2018 PHEV since new.

The 2018 is EPA-rated at 26 mpg and this is exactly what you will get on the freeway at 60 mph if you just keep it in the default D gear and don’t use Charge mode and start out with a completely depleted lithium battery pack. That is, 26 mpg is what the gasoline engine on its own, in the MY2018 PHEV, will deliver.

I have no idea how the EPA testing rules affect other hybrids’ official mpg ratings such as the Toyota hybrids.

I do know that in real world everyday use with my PHEV in service as my fulltime Uber vehicle, taking prudent advantage of the range extension provided by the lithium battery pack, I routinely get 30 to 35 mpg on the freeway (Interstates 5, 90, and 405 at 60-70 mph). This is with the AC and heating always on (climate control set at 73-76°F depending on outside air temperature), usually with the adaptive cruise control on, and with 4WD Lock always on except when going uphill (the torque of the rear motor acts as additional damping on the rear suspension, thus giving my passengers a smoother ride) (but for some unknown reason when going uphill with 4WD Lock on the Charge mode does not work, so I shut 4WD Lock off until I crest the hill. The rear motor continues to be used anyway.). Oh, and also, that’s with Michelin Primacy Tour all-season 225/60-R18 tires which have more rolling resistance than the factory 225/55-R18 Toyo A24’s. I have found that the taller the sidewall the better the ride and the MUCH quieter the cabin. My next tires will be 235/65-R18.

Overall mileage is around 28 mpg but this poor of mileage is only because I idle a lot and stop and start a lot. Take the car out of Charge or Save mode when stopped, to cause the gasoline engine to shut off. I often forget to do this. When I consistently remember to use null mode at standstill I get 30-31 mpg combined city+freeway, calculated at the gas pump at the end of the day. Oh, and, I almost never use external charging.

There is another current thread, having to do with a burning rubber smell, in which I describe my complete driving regimen. I don’t know how applicable it would be to the 2023 PHEV because the 2023 no longer gives you a single button to drop in or out of 4WD Lock mode, instead it has a road surface selector knob which I have not had time yet to experiment with. But I would bet that I could make the 2023 PHEV give the same 20-25% more mpg as a daily average than its official EPA-rated 26 mpg (combined city+highway), just as I do with my 2018.
Last edited by 2018gt on Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
nrayanov
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

2018gt wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:54 pm with 4WD Lock always on except when going uphill
Any reason why you do NOT use the 4WD Lock when going uphill?

The maximum traction on the back tyres will be most efficient exactly in this scenario.
What I'm trying to say is that, you should ALWAYS use the 4WD Lock.

According to numerous owners of the 3rd GEN Outlander PHEV the most fuel efficient way to use the car is ECO mode + 4WD Lock.

Now I know you are not into pulling out the best efficiency because you are an UBER, but I hope the information I shared will be helpful to you.
2018gt
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:40 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

I guess it’s a quirk of the charging management system. Going uphill with 4WD Lock on, in Charge mode, the battery does not charge. But if I take 4WD Lock off, the rear motor continues to be used, but now the battery charges.

I don’t use ECO mode unless no other traffic and wide open road, simply because I insist on having the maximum acceleration available at all times, purely for safety reasons.
Hasenphever
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:44 am

Re: Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

nrayanov wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:32 am
If you quote the exact numbers you are talking about I could provide a little bit more insight.
See the first post in this thread.

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