PHEV box

A dealer, whether independent or not, can be held liable for the consequences of any work they do on the vehicle.If there would be any doubt in their mind they would remove the box before a factory representative were to examine the car, I'm sure

Can the PHEV Box be seen by diagnostic equipment etc, or do you have to physically see it to know it is there?

No, it does not show up in the logs, as the only thing it does is modify the throttle response. It does nothing that a very careful driver cannot do with his right foot.
A test drive by somebody who knows the PHEV will make the driver notice the different response of the car, though.

jaapv said:

No, it does not show up in the logs, as the only thing it does is modify the throttle response. It does nothing that a very careful driver cannot do with his right foot.
A test drive by somebody who knows the PHEV will make the driver notice the different response of the car, though.

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Ok thanks. So no need to take it out every time your car goes to the dealership.

In my case that would be rather pointless, seeing that they fitted it themselves on my request. I was too lazy to contort myself under the steering wheel.

Anyone tried this mode yet, as in using the PHEV Box in normal mode and not having to use the Eco button.

http://vtechtuning.eu/phev-box.html

vs2 said:

Anyone tried this mode yet, as in using the PHEV Box in normal mode and not having to use the Eco button.

http://vtechtuning.eu/phev-box.html

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Do you mean to ask if somebody tried to accomplish that? Use the PHEV box functionality in Normal mode? I don't think it is possible without them changing the firmware.

In Normal mode, the throttle mapping is the same as without the box. Only the ICEStop function will continue to work in Normal mode (although not as effective).

Next question: why should you want to?

jaapv said:

Next question: why should you want to?

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I can only imagine one is kinda done with pressing ECO over and over again. Also, I have had one or two occasions where I accidentally started the engine, assuming I was protected by the box, while I was not because I had forgotten to press ECO.

And one time this week when I had to leave the pavement to make room for an oncoming truck. Instead of pressing the 4WD button, I pressed the Charge button :evil: Different story

anko said:

jaapv said:

Next question: why should you want to?

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I can only imagine one is kinda done with pressing ECO over and over again. Also, I have had one or two occasions where I accidentally started the engine, assuming I was protected by the box, while I was not because I had forgotten to press ECO.

And one time this week when I had to leave the pavement to make room for an oncoming truck. Instead of pressing the 4WD button, I pressed the Charge button :evil: Different story

Click to expand...

Exactly.

jaapv said:

A dealer, whether independent or not, can be held liable for the consequences of any work they do on the vehicle.If there would be any doubt in their mind they would remove the box before a factory representative were to examine the car, I'm sure

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As far as liability for damage to the traction battery is concerned I suggest that in this case the dealer was acting as the agent of car owner / operator rather than as the agent of the manufacturer who would be entitled to repudiate any claim from the vehicle's owner should fitting and use of the V-Tech unit cause damage to the battery.

Whether the dealer could be held liable would depend on what conversations took place at the time the installation was requested.

If I was dealer asked to install one I think it would be wise to get a disclaimer signed by the customer to ensure that the installation was being done at the owners risk and against the advice of the dealer.

Having said all that I'm still quite interested in installing one but still can't bring myself to shell out 250 British Pounds, especially while the device appears to be still unfinished (at least in terms of the ICE Stop element).

At least I've got a couple of years before I have to pay the non EU shipping charge

I also wish I could see reports from more users of the device.

On a related note I wonder why Mitsu can't just offer a firmware upgrade so that Euro cars can't operate on pure EV (as in the USA with their EV button) by using the ECO button.

JimB

I will be having some PCB made for a sticky function purpose. These will be equally at home to provide a sticky ECO feature, like I presently use for my own Sticky SAVE feature. I had been hoping that MMC would do a firmware update and include some sticky features for user button press settings. No signs yet of a firmware update for this. Do any forum members have a detailed procedure for removing the ECO button to access the switch mechanism?

Claymore said:

jaapv said:

A dealer, whether independent or not, can be held liable for the consequences of any work they do on the vehicle.If there would be any doubt in their mind they would remove the box before a factory representative were to examine the car, I'm sure

Click to expand...

As far as liability for damage to the traction battery is concerned I suggest that in this case the dealer was acting as the agent of car owner / operator rather than as the agent of the manufacturer who would be entitled to repudiate any claim from the vehicle's owner should fitting and use of the V-Tech unit cause damage to the battery.

Whether the dealer could be held liable would depend on what conversations took place at the time the installation was requested.

If I was dealer asked to install one I think it would be wise to get a disclaimer signed by the customer to ensure that the installation was being done at the owners risk and against the advice of the dealer.

Having said all that I'm still quite interested in installing one but still can't bring myself to shell out 250 British Pounds, especially while the device appears to be still unfinished (at least in terms of the ICE Stop element).

At least I've got a couple of years before I have to pay the non EU shipping charge

I also wish I could see reports from more users of the device.

On a related note I wonder why Mitsu can't just offer a firmware upgrade so that Euro cars can't operate on pure EV (as in the USA with their EV button) by using the ECO button.

JimB

JimB

JimB

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Under Dutch law the manufacturer would have to prove cause and effect and the dealer would be fully liable wihtout signed disclaimer, my lawyer friends assure me.

Guys, just heard some newish info regarding the PHEV Box usage and as I was running yet another round of checking this forum, got the info that anko played a part in the UAT testing and distribution of the box in NL -- and as such he was (...is??) using the box in his own car, so @anko your input would be highly appreciated on the following topic.. (and of course on others as well, for that matter :lol

Let me share a some kind of disquieting info regarding the usage of the PHEV box, that I've just heard. Disclaimer: I cannot confirm authenticity of the information below and unless it gets further confirmation, please treat it as a bare gossip.
I've read on a closed forum, where people's identity and location is displayed and verifiable more or less, a post by a Mitsu service man about the PHEV boxes allegedly to have caused 7 car breakdowns in total in the UK up to this day.
Main PHEV ecu complete failure and over-current logged by the battery sensors along with some cable burns said to be to be the main symptoms.
How the official Mitsu service can know for sure, that the common point across all of these occurences were the installed PHEV boxes, remains a mistery for now.

Having my 3.5 yrs old PHEV for 8 months now, the PHEV box was the first on my list of the next obligatory upgrades. Therefore not surprisingly, I feel a great deal of discomfort by the above and would like to ask the long-time users of the box about their experiences, possibly regarding some unexpected behaviour related to it experienced on the long run, if not failures (if any).

I did not distribute the box. The supplier came to the Netherlands and installed the BOX in 12 (?) cars. But, indeed this happened to be on my driveway ;-)

I believe that something like this was claimed, but I have a hard time believing that such a claim would valid. First of all, I would think that the majority of PHEV Box buyers have learned about the Box via this or the Dutch forum. Don't we think at least one of the 7 alleged victims would have reported back to this or the Dutch forum, if the PHEV Box had caused complete failure of their cars?

Second, the throttle only gives input to the PHEV ECU with respect to your intentions: how fast do you want to go? But it is the PHEV ECU that controls how much power is taken from the battery, not the throttle. No matter how fast / how deep you depress the throttle, it should not impact the max amount of power drained from the battery.

(apart from heating requirements) ICE starts are triggered by two events:

- Depressing the throttle deep (asking more power than the battery can deliver requires the ICE to assist).
- Depressing the throttle quickly (the car anticipates that you are going to depress it deep, and pre-starts the ICE).

The Box tries to prevent these ICE starts. From what I was told, effectively it does two things: for this

- As long as you do not depress the throttle further than the kick-down point, the Box wilI make the car believe that you depressed it even less deep. More or less a virtual brick under the throttle.
- When you depress the throttle quickly, the Box will make the car believe you depressed it slowly. More or less putting a layer of virtual thick foam between the brick and the throttle.

Nothing the Box does cannot be done by controlling your right foot. I would say, if the Box can break the car, than so can you with your right foot.

anko said:

I did not distribute the box. The supplier came to the Netherlands and installed the BOX in 12 (?) cars. But, indeed this happened to be on my driveway ;-)

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Thank you for your quick response there. Ah yes, I was trying to carefully phrase this part, and not to suggest anything untrue. Therefore I hinted you played a part, so let that 'part' be the piece of land that happens to be your driveway :lol:

anko said:

- As long as you do not depress the throttle further than the kick-down point, the Box wilI make the car believe that you depressed it even less deep. More or less a virtual brick under the throttle.
- When you depress the throttle quickly, the Box will make the car believe you depressed it slowly. More or less putting a layer of virtual thick foam between the brick and the throttle.

Nothing the Box does cannot be done by controlling your right foot. I would say, if the Box can break the car, than so can you with your right foot

Click to expand...

This was a very picturesque description, very helpful I think :!: But then this suggests that - by modulating the actual deepness and speed of throttle move - it must make the car overly sluggish, doesn't it? (Much more than in the stock ECO mode.) I would say in any EV-only mode, we can only employ a total power of 60 kW (which in itself isn't something too stout for a 1.88 ton car anyway). However, if you're trying to apply that with a sponge under the throttle (as this is being simulated by the box) - is it sufficient for anything... eg. for a low speed takeover, etc.?
If the above is correct, then - probably - this makes a huge difference to the real EV button coming in 2015 and on. Presumably the EV button doesn't limit the responsiveness of the throttle in EV-only mode, ie. the 82 HP of power can be utilized real time, without any procrastination. In this sense, the PHEV Box's ECO button is vastly different from the stock EV button.

That said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong in this assumption, pls long-term users chime in..

Another question to anko... sometime you posted you had a period full of unjustifiable ICE starts while PHEV box-ECO button was on. Did you manage to reveal the underlying causes of those, or did these actually lag behind over time?

It gets far less sluggish

With the Box active and the throttle depressed not further than the kick down, you get the full 60 kW. Without the Box, you would get 60 kW little before reaching the kick down point. So you had to stay away from that point. Without the Box it is very difficult to ask for the full 60 kW without asking more and triggering an ICE start.

With the Box active, you can depress the throttle up to the kick down point very quickly and ask for the full 60 kW, without the car realising you did it very quickly. So, you can ask the full 60 kW quickly, without triggering the car to pre-start the ICE.

Unjustifiable starts still happen. A lot. IMHO, these are caused by the ECU trying to protect my already damaged battery from further damage by restricting the max battery out to (e.g. 40 kW instead of 60 kW).

Very reassuring info thanks very much...also for the explanation on why it isn't so how I assumed.

Oh well, and what's the status of your battery now (%) and what range can you obtain with that battery condition?

mrqz said:

..., and what's the status of your battery now (%) and what range can you obtain with that battery condition?

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70-ish / 25 km when driving very moderate at 5 - 10 deg C.

anko said:

mrqz said:

..., and what's the status of your battery now (%) and what range can you obtain with that battery condition?

Click to expand...

70-ish / 25 km when driving very moderate at 5 - 10 deg C.

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A-ha. As it seems, under some point around ~80%, the range drop becomes more accentuated. I've heard a lot of 80-ish PHEV's of which the range wasn't sensibly reduced. My 06-2014 model with 140 kkm does around 37-38 km at around zero deg C, in the city that is. (On highway I once covered 60kms EV-only!! That was a few months back and in ~20 deg C. I LOVED that )

Is there a watershed moment set up by yourself - eg. getting below 20 km or so - in which you're planning to get around refurbishing the batt, or get second hand pack, or, possibly replace to a new PHEV?