Buyer questions

Actually, the PHEV should give a relatively better economy when carrying a load than a fully ICE-driven vehicle.
The main increase in consumption when increasing the load is by the extra effort required to overcome inertia when accelerating - and on an ICE-driven car that energy will be wasted as heat when braking (ignoring things like wind resistance when slowing down and increased rolling resistance here for the sake of the argument).
On the PHEV at least part of that energy used accelerating is recovered through regeneration - making it more efficient.

Reading a lot. Another topic got my attention :
Drive battery deterioration . Houston, do we have a problem?


This topic got my attention but i'm a bit lost. My english is a bit limited to say.
I'm looking for an used Outlander Phev. Most likely an 2013 model. Most likely one that has above 100k km's on it (62k+ miles). What I understand is that in just a few years the battery get 20%+ worse.
That is from 40Km range it will go to 32 km range?

Mitsubishi is giving 5 years / 100k km's warranty on the powertrain. So for us it means no warranty left.
Is it smart to buy with these conditions? Do they not trust their own battery enough like Opel/Chevrolet /Mercedes and more perhaps to give more warranty? These company give 8 year or 160.000 km warranty.

Mine is down to 32.5 Ah from 37.5 Ah new. (the 40 Ah that some use as a base is just a nominal value)

I do not notice any loss of range. (Yet?)
Nor to worry, capacity loss on Li-Ion batteries is non-linear.

Rien said:

...

Mitsubishi is giving 5 years / 100k km's warranty on the powertrain. So for us it means no warranty left.
Is it smart to buy with these conditions? Do they not trust their own battery enough like Opel/Chevrolet /Mercedes and more perhaps to give more warranty? These company give 8 year or 160.000 km warranty.

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Until recently, the Mitsubishi warranty on the battery was of very little value even during the 5 years - it was effectively a warranty against complete failure rather than loss of capacity - if the car was still functional, they probably would not have paid out. I believe that they have now added clauses specifying the maximum expected loss of capacity and you should be able to make a claim if that is exceeded.

It is worth checking the small print on the warranties on other EVs and PHEVs - they may not be cast iron either. I remember reading that there was at least one Tesla owner who is in dispute with the company on the grounds that, when he bought the car it was able to get him to work and back on a single charge but the capacity had now dropped to the point where it could not.

Mine is down to 27.9 and the degradation is, opposite to what Mitsubishi claim, lineair or even worse than linear. I have lost more than 10 km EV range over time. But I believe I am an exception.

130.000 km / later 2013.

anko said:

Mine is down to 27.9 and the degradation is, opposite to what Mitsubishi claim, linear or even worse than linear. I have lost more than 10 km EV range over time. But I believe I am an exception.

130.000 km / later 2013.

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It is probably just one cell, Anko. Did you get the battery pack balanced?

anko said:

Mine is down to 27.9 and the degradation is, opposite to what Mitsubishi claim, lineair or even worse than linear. I have lost more than 10 km EV range over time. But I believe I am an exception.

130.000 km / later 2013.

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We can shake hands. Seems i'm an exception to with other cars. New Benz 3 turbo's dead in the first year.
We get ourselves an 2nd hands Renault Espace. After 5 days we blew the turbo through the engine.....

So thats why I'm a bit over worried to buy another car. You must have a bit luck they always say with an 2nd hands car. New car too.
Thats why i'm trying to be (more) prepared with the Outlander phev so I know whats coming.

According to a Wegenwacht bloke I spoke ( I had to have the fuel tank pumped for getting the wrong petrol ) these cars are amongst the most reliable he knew.

Rien said:

anko said:

Mine is down to 27.9 and the degradation is, opposite to what Mitsubishi claim, lineair or even worse than linear. I have lost more than 10 km EV range over time. But I believe I am an exception.

130.000 km / later 2013.

Click to expand...

We can shake hands. Seems i'm an exception to with other cars. New Benz 3 turbo's dead in the first year.
We get ourselves an 2nd hands Renault Espace. After 5 days we blew the turbo through the engine.....

So thats why I'm a bit over worried to buy another car. You must have a bit luck they always say with an 2nd hands car. New car too.
Thats why i'm trying to be (more) prepared with the Outlander phev so I know whats coming.

Click to expand...

Demand a battery condition report when you buy one. Refuse anything under 32.5 @ 3 years old.

jaapv said:

According to a Wegenwacht bloke I spoke ( I had to have the fuel tank pumped for getting the wrong petrol ) these cars are amongst the most reliable he knew.

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Oh, it is reliable indeed. Never let me down.

Where am i at the moment.

1: Opel Ampera. Little less reliable, but has range and a good battery to last for years and years what I read on the dutch & US forum.

2: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV : reliable, but less range and battery deteriorating is much faster. So most likely the range is even getting worse in the coming years.

Lot of things to think about.

anko said:

Mine is down to 27.9 and the degradation is, opposite to what Mitsubishi claim, lineair or even worse than linear. I have lost more than 10 km EV range over time. But I believe I am an exception.

130.000 km / later 2013.

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Interesting .. exact same age and km as my PHEV

But 35.4Ah for now (I have seen as up as 36Ah, 10k km ago and 10months ago) ... best range I can make in EV is ~45km .. highest charging is 9.1kwh (MMCS cost-charge report)

With a lot of reading on the forum here and other information from he Internet.
We have decided not to buy an used Outlander Phev. We just do not have enough faith with the battery. I read here that people lost several Km's range with an car that is just a few years old.

We really like the car and we had already decided to go for an instyle or instyle+ probably white or black.
Only the damned battery. We really are worried about that. For our family spending 20K for an car is A LOT of money.




http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3283

That is a problem to a varying degree with any electric car. If you don't want that worry, you'll have to stick with a conventional combustion-engined vehicle.

However, if you buy from a Mitsubishi dealer and insist on a battery condition report, you should be OK.

Rien said:

With a lot of reading on the forum here and other information from he Internet.
We have decided not to buy an used Outlander Phev. We just do not have enough faith with the battery. I read here that people lost several Km's range with an car that is just a few years old.

We really like the car and we had already decided to go for an instyle or instyle+ probably white or black.
Only the damned battery. We really are worried about that. For our family spending 20K for an car is A LOT of money.




http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3283

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I think you will find that it is a problem with most EVs at the moment - battery technology is still developing and you will lose range with time. Even the mythical Tesla has problems - there is an owner somewhere who is suing them because his car can no longer manage his daily commute. He bought it on the basis that the range on a single charge was enough to get him to work and back with some capacity to spare, but now he is having to charge part way through and there is no convenient place to do so.

In fairness to the PHEV, you do have a petrol engine, so battery degradation has got to be pretty severe before the car becomes unusable.

It will be a long, long time before it gets unusable. I expect mine to turn into a "normal" hybrid in a decade or so. However, exchanging or reconditioning the battery after it has run down to an unacceptable level may well become affordable in the future. There are already companies replacing bad cells on old Prius cars.

jaapv said:

It will be a long, long time before it gets unusable. I expect mine to turn into a "normal" hybrid in a decade or so. However, exchanging or reconditioning the battery after it has run down to an unacceptable level may well become affordable in the future. There are already companies replacing bad cells on old Prius cars.

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Battery recondition for Lithium battery ? :shock:

I know it is a reality for Lead Acid battery ... but Acid battery is a 100y old technology .. mega ultra simple ... Lithium battery are too complex for be recondition in my opinion

Still ... a battery pack has 80 element .. and the total capacity is dictated by the weakest over these 80 elements .. so .. if one element degradate faster then all other, then the this can be "cured" with relative contained price ... still .. battery pack are not easily accessible .. so labour cost will be always quite expensive .. and DIY almost impossible

maby said:

I think you will find that it is a problem with most EVs at the moment - battery technology is still developing and you will lose range with time. Even the mythical Tesla has problems - there is an owner somewhere who is suing them because his car can no longer manage his daily commute. He bought it on the basis that the range on a single charge was enough to get him to work and back with some capacity to spare, but now he is having to charge part way through and there is no convenient place to do so.

In fairness to the PHEV, you do have a petrol engine, so battery degradation has got to be pretty severe before the car becomes unusable.

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Tesla has high battery degradation problem ???

I only know reports that point out how low is the degradation on Tesla lithium cells ... it is a recent a report from a Taxi driver in Finland with a Tesla S, which after 400.000km .. has only 7% battery degradation

Which ... BTW .. is same as my PHEV ... which is almost 4y old with 130.000km on the clock ... but ... I believe I'm more an exception then the normality for the Outlander PHEV .. and possibly real battery capacity adn degradation on our PHEV is more fuzzy to be measured ...

Does anyone know what is the cost of second year service in Ireland?

jaapv said:

It will be a long, long time before it gets unusable. I expect mine to turn into a "normal" hybrid in a decade or so. However, exchanging or reconditioning the battery after it has run down to an unacceptable level may well become affordable in the future. There are already companies replacing bad cells on old Prius cars.

Click to expand...

That is an very interesting approach Jaap. Didnt think of it that way. After reading your reply I did search for batrtery repair center. And seems we have an repair center in the Netherlands. Bennie Wilmink.

So back in business.
The thing is we have done an test drive with the car. And all 4 of us (specially wife and me) where impressed with the silence onboard. The very good overview of the road / outside. And we just like how the model is looking. We have test driven the Opel Ampera and that is another story. Really fun car to drive. Not much space. More a fun car. Not practical. Kids seats adjusting is a bit of an hasle. The car is low.
The Outlander is pretty high and very easy to place / adjust the kids car seats. Don't have to sit on your knees on the road to get things attached / adjusted.

We have another mpv (Mazda) as our 2nd car. The Benz is an mpv to. When we step in an normal sedan car it always feels a bit as an step backwards. Not stepping in, but falling in and climbing out.

About buying:
At the moment I see on the Mitsubishi website an candidate: Price is 19.800. It has 171K km. My first thinking is: It is on the Mitsubishi website so I guess they have faith in the car. Offcourse I do not know the battery state yet. If the battery state is Ok, how bad are the high Km's on the vehicle?
I have no problems to spend a bit more money to have an car with less km's on it if that is money spend wisely. I guess it means we get more maintenance costs. Where do you draw the line. I can spend 22.600 for an car that has 100 - 128k kms on it. That is 3.000 more expensive.
Questions is a bit what changes are that we get these maintenance costs on the car the coming few years with the one with 171K km's?