Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?

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Trex said:
maby said:
Almost all our usage is outside EV range and I simply drive on "Save" all the time with the battery around 50 to 60% charged.
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OMG :eek:

After all those arguments with me and from memory anko on how you just pressed "Save" right from the start when we said you shouldn't for fuel and regen reasons you now write this.

Must be a different maby. :?

Or have I gone to parallel universe. :cool:
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Not at all! I do press "Save" right from the start, but given its shortcomings, I'm down to about 50 or 60% within a couple of days. I then use the "Charge" button periodically to keep it over 50%. I just wish that Mitsubishi had thought about owners who do spend long periods on the road and had offered a "long range mode" which brings the centre of the hysteresis loop up to 50% - I really don't want to be bothered with manually controlling something that should be an automatic function.
 
maby said:
Not at all! I do press "Save" right from the start, but given its shortcomings, I'm down to about 50 or 60% within a couple of days. I then use the "Charge" button periodically to keep it over 50%. I just wish that Mitsubishi had thought about owners who do spend long periods on the road and had offered a "long range mode" which brings the centre of the hysteresis loop up to 50% - I really don't want to be bothered with manually controlling something that should be an automatic function.
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I don't get why you want to have always 50% of more SOC.

50% on Car display is around 65% real SOC ... or around 3.95v

As far as I know the ideal battery voltage for long time storage is between 3.75v to 3.85v

So personally I would not be happy to have all time 3.95v or more on my PHEV battery cells.

PHEV in automatic mode (as pure hybrid without charging it), it will keep the battery between 3.75v and 3.85v .. so at ideal condition.
 
elm70 said:
maby said:
Not at all! I do press "Save" right from the start, but given its shortcomings, I'm down to about 50 or 60% within a couple of days. I then use the "Charge" button periodically to keep it over 50%. I just wish that Mitsubishi had thought about owners who do spend long periods on the road and had offered a "long range mode" which brings the centre of the hysteresis loop up to 50% - I really don't want to be bothered with manually controlling something that should be an automatic function.
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I don't get why you want to have always 50% of more SOC.

50% on Car display is around 65% real SOC ... or around 3.95v

As far as I know the ideal battery voltage for long time storage is between 3.75v to 3.85v

So personally I would not be happy to have all time 3.95v or more on my PHEV battery cells.

PHEV in automatic mode (as pure hybrid without charging it), it will keep the battery between 3.75v and 3.85v .. so at ideal condition.
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I keep it at 50% because it's a horrible car to drive at 0%. I don't want my engine screaming in response to every demand for power.

Others here, yourself included, try to use the PHEV as an EV as much as possible - your battery must spend significant periods of time sitting at 100% in between charging and next being driven. Mine sits at 50%, more or less, most of the time - who knows which is kindest to the battery? In terms of regen braking levels, I have not noticed any drop - the owners that are complaining most here about battery degradation seem to be those that have put in the most effort to maximise EV operation.
 
maby said:
I keep it at 50% because it's a horrible car to drive at 0%. I don't want my engine screaming in response to every demand for power.

Others here, yourself included, try to use the PHEV as an EV as much as possible - your battery must spend significant periods of time sitting at 100% in between charging and next being driven. Mine sits at 50%, more or less, most of the time - who knows which is kindest to the battery? In terms of regen braking levels, I have not noticed any drop - the owners that are complaining most here about battery degradation seem to be those that have put in the most effort to maximise EV operation.
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Honestly I did not notice that car is terrible to drive at 0%

The behaviour is looking all time the the same .. if power requested is under 60kw ... EV mode is kept .. if power requested is more then 60kw ... then ICE kick in, even if battery is at 100% , and yes ICE kick in can be "noisy" in this case.

Unless we are towing or we need a lot of power for extended time ... I don't see any problem keeping the battery at 0% on car display = 30% real SOC

About my battery degradation ... my PHEV for be a old Dec 2013 car with high usage 135k km ... the Apps reports SOH 90.5% (which is maybe optimistic, and still going down on regular monthly base .. but it is ok ).. still before me it was in the hands of somebody driving in ICE all the time ... my car has only ~1000 charging cycle, that is around 1/3 or the 1/2 compared to other PHEV from 2013 or 2014 .. used as "EV"

Anyhow .. my PHEV battery is fully charge only for 2h a days .. since it get charged from midnight, and used at 7am ... so it sits most of the time at 50% or less ... if I don't use the car for 1 or more days .. I take care to leave the car with few km of EV range left.

When I use my car in vacation, without possibility for charge the car ... I tent to kept 5 to 10km of EV range .... only for start and stop my trips in EV mode and activate AC before enter in the car.
 
elm70 said:
maby said:
I keep it at 50% because it's a horrible car to drive at 0%. I don't want my engine screaming in response to every demand for power.

Others here, yourself included, try to use the PHEV as an EV as much as possible - your battery must spend significant periods of time sitting at 100% in between charging and next being driven. Mine sits at 50%, more or less, most of the time - who knows which is kindest to the battery? In terms of regen braking levels, I have not noticed any drop - the owners that are complaining most here about battery degradation seem to be those that have put in the most effort to maximise EV operation.
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Honestly I did not notice that car is terrible to drive at 0%

....
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Hmmm, we obviously have different definitions of "terrible". I'm used to big diesels and V8 petrol engines - my teeth begin to grate as soon as the revs go much over 2000! Or perhaps you have a lighter right foot? My part of the world is relatively hilly and with the battery flat, the PHEV is a painful car to drive. The worst example of this is coming off a set of traffic lights at the bottom of a relatively steep hill leading up to a high speed dual carriageway. With a flat battery, I'm going from stationary onto a hill with a 40mph speed limit, climbing to a slip road where I have to merge into some fairly dense high speed traffic. Accelerating up the hill uses up all the residual charge in the flat battery and I find myself trying to accelerate hard into a gap in a line of cars doing 70mph - the poor engine sounds like it is going to jump out of the car!

My battery generally gets charged about twice per week and spends most of its time between about 40% and 60% - by the meter. Thus far, I have not noticed any signs of deterioration - but that may, of course, change. Anko's experience certainly does not seem to indicate that maximising the EV operation slows battery deterioration.
 
maby said:
Thus far, I have not noticed any signs of deterioration - but that may, of course, change. Anko's experience certainly does not seem to indicate that maximising the EV operation slows battery deterioration.
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How would you know? Have you had a battery report done from the dealer?

Do you have an OBD-II adapter with an app?

Now I cannot speak for anko but I am now down in the 70s percentage of battery health but I do NOT regret anything I have done with the PHEV.

Saved a crap load of Petrol and as my battery gets down I might pull it out and use on my house (I have solar) to save buying electricity. I will replace old battery with a new hopefully bigger battery. :D

I cannot wait. :cool:
 
I'm also hoping that this becomes a thing by the time my battery becomes to old for the car.

I've heard that Nissan have created some kind of kit to assist owners in reusing their batteries as house batteries, hopefully Mitsubishi will follow suit.

Especially here in Australia, where we are making good inroads with this kind of tech.
 
elm70 said:
maby said:
I keep it at 50% because it's a horrible car to drive at 0%. I don't want my engine screaming in response to every demand for power.

Others here, yourself included, try to use the PHEV as an EV as much as possible - your battery must spend significant periods of time sitting at 100% in between charging and next being driven. Mine sits at 50%, more or less, most of the time - who knows which is kindest to the battery? In terms of regen braking levels, I have not noticed any drop - the owners that are complaining most here about battery degradation seem to be those that have put in the most effort to maximise EV operation.
Click to expand...

Honestly I did not notice that car is terrible to drive at 0%

The behaviour is looking all time the the same .. if power requested is under 60kw ... EV mode is kept .. if power requested is more then 60kw ... then ICE kick in, even if battery is at 100% , and yes ICE kick in can be "noisy" in this case.

Unless we are towing or we need a lot of power for extended time ... I don't see any problem keeping the battery at 0% on car display = 30% real SOC

About my battery degradation ... my PHEV for be a old Dec 2013 car with high usage 135k km ... the Apps reports SOH 90.5% (which is maybe optimistic, and still going down on regular monthly base .. but it is ok ).. still before me it was in the hands of somebody driving in ICE all the time ... my car has only ~1000 charging cycle, that is around 1/3 or the 1/2 compared to other PHEV from 2013 or 2014 .. used as "EV"

Anyhow .. my PHEV battery is fully charge only for 2h a days .. since it get charged from midnight, and used at 7am ... so it sits most of the time at 50% or less ... if I don't use the car for 1 or more days .. I take care to leave the car with few km of EV range left.

When I use my car in vacation, without possibility for charge the car ... I tent to kept 5 to 10km of EV range .... only for start and stop my trips in EV mode and activate AC before enter in the car.
Click to expand...
I can see and appreciate both sides of this discussion. While driving most of the time and have the ability to charge at home I don't need to use the charge button to keep the battery above 50% and just let the car sort itself out, but, when I am away from any means of charging, like Maby seems to be most of the time, then I do need to keep the battery charged, this car is not IMO very nice to drive with little or no battery available when you are driving in very hilly areas and I appreciate that using the charge button is not the most economical way of driving this car, but we are not all obsessed with squeezing out every inch from each drop of fuel. My car is just a means of getting me and my family around safely and in comfort, which it does with aplomb.
Driving style, journey type and why you bought this car make it the most subjective car that I have ever owned.
 
AndyInOz said:
I'm also hoping that this becomes a thing by the time my battery becomes to old for the car.

I've heard that Nissan have created some kind of kit to assist owners in reusing their batteries as house batteries, hopefully Mitsubishi will follow suit.

Especially here in Australia, where we are making good inroads with this kind of tech.
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AndyInOz where you been?

You have been leaving HHL and I on the front lines. :lol:

Did not know about Nissan and if you search "Nissan Reuses EV Batteries For Home Energy Storage" this comes up:

Nissan has revealed a new home energy storage product created from recycled batteries sourced from the company's electric vehicle offerings, according to recent reports. The move means that Nissan has now joined Tesla and Daimler (Mercedes) in the offering of home energy storage systems in addition ..............

Thanks for the heads up.
 
zzcoopej said:
AndyInOz said:
here in Australia, where we are making good inroads with this kind of tech.
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Yep. This is one to watch http://www.relectrify.com/technology/
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Another aussie back. :cool:

Hey zzcoopej how are you going? :)

Just watched that link. Thanks. CSIRO involved in testing etc. CEO Holds PhD in battery control technology. :cool:

Hope they go well.
 
Trex said:
Hey zzcoopej how are you going? :)

Just watched that link. Thanks. CSIRO involved in testing etc. CEO Holds PhD in battery control technology. :cool:

Hope they go well.
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Been lurking. A change in my priorities doesn't leave much spare time these days.
 
I just notice that our PHEV battery pack can be acquired on ebay ... people in UK can get them for just 2000 Euros ... from Germany I have seen one for 3000 euros.

Maybe it can make sense to swap out battery pack with less then 70% SOH ... and use these depredated battery as power bank for a solar panel
 
I hadn't been driving my car for about two months, but I drove it the other day. The car was properly pre-heated but still needed the heater to stay warm. With the heater turned off, the ICE would fire as soon as the needle in the power meter reached the 10:30 position. With the heater turned on, the ICE would fire a bit sooner. But the ICE would turn off again when I eased off the throttle. So, the ICE was not starting to provide heat, but to support the battery. It appears that with the current state of my battery I cannot go over approx. 40 kW power demand before the ICE fires. This means with the heater on at full force, no more than approx. 36 kW is available for propelling the car. Data from my OBD tool back up this conclusion.

Already at a speed as low as 17 (19) km/h power demand can 36 (40) kW. Exiting from a roundabout while keeping pace with other traffic is enough to trigger the ICE.

Earlier, I was planning to reprogram my PHEV Box to limit power demand to a value below 60 kW to prevent ICE starts, but I have come to the conclusion that I would have to limit it so far that it would make my car impossible (or at least dangerous) to drive.
 
elm70 said:
I just notice that our PHEV battery pack can be acquired on ebay ... people in UK can get them for just 2000 Euros ... from Germany I have seen one for 3000 euros.
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Can't find anything on ebay - have you got the link?
 
anko said:
I hadn't been driving my car for about two months, but I drove it the other day. The car was properly pre-heated but still needed the heater to stay warm. With the heater turned off, the ICE would fire as soon as the needle in the power meter reached the 10:30 position. With the heater turned on, the ICE would fire a bit sooner. But the ICE would turn off again when I eased off the throttle. So, the ICE was not starting to provide heat, but to support the battery. It appears that with the current state of my battery I cannot go over approx. 40 kW power demand before the ICE fires. This means with the heater on at full force, no more than approx. 36 kW is available for propelling the car. Data from my OBD tool back up this conclusion.

Already at a speed as low as 17 (19) km/h power demand can 36 (40) kW. Exiting from a roundabout while keeping pace with other traffic is enough to trigger the ICE.

Earlier, I was planning to reprogram my PHEV Box to limit power demand to a value below 60 kW to prevent ICE starts, but I have come to the conclusion that I would have to limit it so far that it would make my car impossible (or at least dangerous) to drive.
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So, is the whole pack bad or are there just a few cells or maybe one cell that is causing the problem?
 
greendwarf said:
elm70 said:
I just notice that our PHEV battery pack can be acquired on ebay ... people in UK can get them for just 2000 Euros ... from Germany I have seen one for 3000 euros.
Click to expand...

Can't find anything on ebay - have you got the link?
Click to expand...

Was ebay.de .. but actually the pack is somewhere else .. in Latvia

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-Outlander-III-HYBRID-PHEV-Akkumulator-Batterie-EV-BATTERY-PACK/132521270193

The guy that made a video for disassemble the PHEV battery pack, he is saying he paid much less then what is asked in this ebay offer.

I see crashed PHEV here in poland, with intact battery pack ... and many undamaged parts .. for as low as 7000 euros

Crashed fiat 500e are even cheaper.

So ... the market for battery from crashed PHEV or EV is coming ... and many youTuber that make DIY EV are using these batteries for make very cheap projects.

PS: A 5kwh pack from a Tesla S ... I think it is just 1250 euros from France ... but Tesla battery have very high demand due to the good reputation on low degradation
 
anko said:
HHL said:
So, is the whole pack bad or are there just a few cells or maybe one cell that is causing the problem?
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Don't know. Never seen one cell standing out in terms of low or high voltage. So I assume it is all over.
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Yes ... your case is very strange.

I would have expected that few cells could have been getting much weaker then most ... but for the graphs you post in the past it is not the case.

It would be interesting to analyse why your PHEV got a batterty so de-gradated .. I'm guessing this is possibly due to the towing

For what you stated somewhere else ... it happen many time that your PHEV got as low as 16% SOC and kick on extra power ... since the Parallel mode was still not able to cope with the EV load.

Considering the errors on SOC from the PHEV ... you may have reach real SOC very low .. causing permanent damage to the battery
 
elm70 said:
For what you stated somewhere else ... it happen many time that your PHEV got as low as 16% SOC and kick on extra power ... since the Parallel mode was still not able to cope with the EV load.
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Perhaps. Although, normally the car switches to serial mode at 20% and then SOC will go back up. Very seldom I have been below 20%. But maybe once is all it takes .... :shock:

elm70 said:
Considering the errors on SOC from the PHEV ...
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What errors are you referring to?
 

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