Bugs and odd decisions in the Outlander PHEV

[elm70]

Here are the up to date list of bugs and odds from the PHEV

Bugs
MMCS bug -> Charging Timer page on MMCS don't work, and block car charging if WiFi apps have been used
MMCS bug -> Climate Control Timer page on MMCS don't work .. if WiFi apps have been used
MMCS bug -> Charging Cost page, show a flat graph (overflow issue), instead of been accurate, only correct data is last charge
MMCS bug -> Energy ECO page in MMCS show the value for current and average kwh/100km .. which is a total random number
MMCS bug -> Graph of mpg can't show more then 180 (similar to flat graph issue on Charging Cost)

Wrong design decision
- 1cm of acceleration travel control without engage ICE
- Almost useless ECO mode, and missing real EV mode
- If accelerator is pressed a bit more over the 60kw power mark .. ICE start, and can start full power from cold, only for the few seconds needed for the eventual overtake ... which happen with a delay in power ... they could use a burst of current from the battery instead and activate ICE only if the accelerator is pressed over the 60kw mark for more then 5 or 10 seconds.
- Unwanted ICE starts if cabin temperature is too cold for warm up the car inside
- Limited power / Torque limit up to 60km/h, causing a slow acceleration .. 4x4 & 120kw could have be used more effectively
- WiFi password not visible on MMCS, if lost, is almost impossible to recover it
- 20 click and 40 click of activate and deactivate WiFi ... instead of easy access on MMCS
- Rear trunk opening, is impossible if car is locked (is more safe to load and unload from trunk without having to unlock the passenger seat doors)
- Push button on the car door , instead of touch control or car opening detect (like BMW is using)
- Car key have no rechargeable battery not a slot for properly hold and charge inside the car
- 12V Lead Acid battery ... that is self discharging and a waste of energy by nature ... when car has a 12Kwh battery pack ... is 110% waste ... BUT ... it is looking like the car automotive standard ... main battery is 300v and this should be disconnected from the car when car is "off" .. 12v power line should be always there .. so for avoid having a load or a connection on the main battery .. old 12V lead acid battery is used ... they could have used a 12V Lithium .. but LeadAcid is "cheaper" for car producer (including Tesla)
- Only 1 timer programmable per day ... is really needed to save bits of memory in the current era with Mega and Gigabyte that cost close to zero ?
- If not pressing on the acceleration pedal, car want to slowly start ... why emulate the limit of an ICE automatic transmission?
- If little press of brake is used, still car want to power the electric engine as the point above ... making a waste of energy and almost impossible to have a smooth car stop
- B2/B3/B4/B5 selection is lost not only when car is restarted, but also at any time is changed from D to N or R mode
- No light behind the buttons on the driver doors .. impossible to operate them in the dark unless people know them by hart the location
- No light behind the MMCS 3 touch buttons ... again not
- Uncomfortable and hidden location of the button for activate the trunk opening, disable the fake car sound, etc ... disable the car fake sound can cause to open accidentally the trunk
- Cup holders in the boot, inherit from 7 version seat ?
- Uncomfortable location of the buttons for activate seat heating, also 3 position switch make it hard to switch off the seat heat without looking at them .. and to look at them require take away the view from the street
- Total range indicator "disappear" when few litres are left in the tank .. so it has to know if there is 30/40 or 50 km left of range ... BMW does keep providing info till 1km range is left (clearly there is still some spare fuel even when goes to zero), Dacia was doing similar, with no more information when 90km range was left .. Mitsubishi Outlander range approach is looking cheap and inconvenient, especially in a car that has EV mode and mainly with ha very small tank of only 45 litres

Cheap solutions:
- On board charger with J1772 up to 16A ... 32A on J1772 available on competitors and in some EV charging points too
- MMCS with resistive touch screen instead of capacitive touch screen, not only the easy usage of it is compromised, but a glass screen capacitive touch screen will be more durable in a car which should have 20y of expected life

Undesirable end result
- Very high fuel consumption after EV usage is not possible due to low battery voltage.
- Only 170km/h top speed
- MMCS navigation maps are extremely expensive


PS: If I miss something .. let me know .. I will update the list

 

[geoffshep69]

Don’t want to go over old ground from the other thread, but to title your list as ‘Wrong Design Decisions’ is somewhat presumptuous and misleading. You might think they are wrong, but others might not…..

 

[ian4x4]

elm70 WROTE- 12V Lead Acid battery ... that is self discharging and a waste of energy by nature ... when car has a 12Kwh battery pack ... is 110% waste

I believe that a separate 12v supply is needed for safety and control purposes as stated on page 111 of the PHEV Technical Highlights.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106981165/PHEV/PHEV%20Outlander%20Technical%20Highlights%20for%20MMAL.pdf
The 12v Aux Battery runs, amongst other things, the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) and BMU (Battery Monitoring Unit).

elm70 - It would help me greatly if you could include some background info / references to some of the technical points you make, as it would save me a lot of time researching your comments.

one other thing - infinite torque at zero rpm of an electric motor is virtually impossible as you would need an infinite current.

Also batteries have limitations due to internal resistance and pure concentration of heat.
This book is interesting as it delves into quite a few of the design problems / opportunities of EV / PHEV cars, and as it is mainly about the BMWi3 it is less contentious on an Outlander PHEV forum. It has a bit on battery configurations.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/106981165/PHEV/PHEV%20Outlander%20Technical%20Highlights%20for%20MMAL.pdf

 

[Fecn]

Although I don't agree with all of the things you have on your list, I've got a couple more for you to add.

The graphs for MPG top-out at 180mpg... which is way too little for my driving pattern where I often get 300mpg and upwards reported on the MMC

Also... 0mpg recorded for very very short moves... (i.e. moving the car 20ft forwards on electric-only power without starting the ICE or using any petrol)

The top-down view of the car in the reversing camera shows me that my car is silver... but it's the ruby-black one... Surely it wouldn't have been too much extra work to have the graphic of the car on the display match the colour of the car you've got.

... and yes... having a lead-acid battery is pretty pointless given that it doesn't need the cranking amps that lead-acid can provide... Surely a lighter 14.4v Li-ion pack would have been a better choice.

 

[anko]

The top-down view of the car in the reversing camera shows me that my car is silver... but it's the ruby-black one... Surely it wouldn't have been too much extra work to have the graphic of the car on the display match the colour of the car you've got.

I build / customize IT applications for multi nationals that have rather demanding users. I would be totally thrilled receiving this kind of feedback, as it tells me I have done a great job in the area's that really matter!

 

[Fecn]

I build / customize IT applications for multi nationals that have rather demanding users. I would be totally thrilled receiving this kind of feedback, as it tells me I have done a great job in the area's that really matter!

Anko - you will make the teams of UX consultants where I work cry if you say that their areas of 'expertise' don't matter

 

[HHL]

... and yes... having a lead-acid battery is pretty pointless given that it doesn't need the cranking amps that lead-acid can provide... Surely a lighter 14.4v Li-ion pack would have been a better choice.

I don't believe that battery is designed for cranking, think it is more akin to a deep cycle. Li-Ion would have made sense, except it would probably cost 3 times as much...
My main gripe is the unwanted ICE starts, but with a bit (maybe a lot) of practice it can be avoided. The real problem with it is as soon as the ICE starts it is asked to supply all the driving power, so, it goes from zero to 60kW output very quickly, hence the "screaming effect".
It might have been better to change the priority and still have the drive battery supply up to it's maximum capability (60kW) and the petrol engine just provide the extra needed at the time. As it is, the ICE will run at pretty well maximum output and the battery kicks in again once the generator output (60kW) is exceeded.

 

[anko]

The real problem with it is as soon as the ICE starts it is asked to supply all the driving power, so, it goes from zero to 60kW output very quickly, hence the "screaming effect".
It might have been better to change the priority and still have the drive battery supply up to it's maximum capability (60kW) and the petrol engine just provide the extra needed at the time. As it is, the ICE will run at pretty well maximum output and the battery kicks in again once the generator output (60kW) is exceeded.

The way I look at it is pretty much the other way around: whenever the engine runs, the car should make it count, as an engine that works hard is running more efficiently than an engine that runs on a partial load. There are two situations in which the engine propels the car but will not (try to) recharge the battery in the process. This is either when the ICE is started for heating purposes or when the engine is running with less than 5 liters (or so) in the tank. In these situations, the engine will only propel the car and not recharge the battery. It will not even go into parallel mode. So, the engine runs less efficiently as it could.

In the first situation, I tend to force charging the battery by means of the charge button. In the second situation, that does not work, as charge mode is not available then.

 

[Fecn]

Another couple of things for the list....

no option for a 32A charger

The whole flappy cover thing for the charging ports... I'm charging twice a day as I'm lucky enough to have free charging where I work... so for 8 hours a day the flap is open when I'm at the office, and after a 40-minute drive back home, I plug back in again to charge ready for the next morning. On my PHEV the charging flap is only closed for less than 2 hours per day.... Given this, it would have been nice to have a solution which wasn't flapping about for 22 hours a day.

also... Cup holders in the boot, but no cup holders for rear passengers

 

[ian4x4]

anko wrote The way I look at it is pretty much the other way around: whenever the engine runs, the car should make it count, as an engine that works hard is running more efficiently than an engine that runs on a partial load.

I agree with anko, the ICE is most efficient at about the RPM it produces maximum torque, or at max BMEP as we used to measure engine efficiency.

(BMEP is a function of temperature of the gases in the cylinder. To increase the temperature you need to burn more fuel, thus making more heat. Or another way is to make better use of the existing fuel. Torque is a function of BMEP and displacement only. HP is a function of torque and rpm)


I am sure that the PHEV is designed to make the best use of every bit of petrol (and electricity). Just think of it as free heat you get when you generate power.

 

[greendwarf]

also... Cup holders in the boot, but no cup holders for rear passengers

Er, do you mean the cup holders I have in the fold down arm rest in the rear? The apparent cup holder in the boot is for the removable ash tray used in some markets

 

[jaapv]

Another couple of things for the list....

no option for a 32A charger

If you mean a CHAdeMO port, mine has.
(At least I think so, I've never opened the cover to see if it is really there :lol: )

 

[elm70]

Another couple of things for the list....

no option for a 32A charger

..

32A over J1772 .. that is only ~7kw ... would be nice .... but I guess:
- Many house are not equipped for provide 7kw from a 220v line
- Car on board charger that does convert 220v ac into 300v dc ... possibly has been designed for take up to 16amp .. for make it cheaper

... and yes... having a lead-acid battery is pretty pointless given that it doesn't need the cranking amps that lead-acid can provide... Surely a lighter 14.4v Li-ion pack would have been a better choice.

ICE does not need 12V battery for start up
12V is inherit from old design ... ECU, light, etc ... need a 12V source
Add a small 14.4v LiIon battery would be a better solution then what it is now, but there is no need for any 12V battery at all ... first of all, there are 80 LiIon cells in the car, so 12V is already available by taking the voltage from the first 3 LiIon cells .. assuming this is not possible due to generated unbalance in the battery pack (if car has a proper balancing that is somehow mandatory, then it would not be an issue), then is possible to use a DC-DC step down that would be more effective

 

[HHL]

The real problem with it is as soon as the ICE starts it is asked to supply all the driving power, so, it goes from zero to 60kW output very quickly, hence the "screaming effect".
It might have been better to change the priority and still have the drive battery supply up to it's maximum capability (60kW) and the petrol engine just provide the extra needed at the time. As it is, the ICE will run at pretty well maximum output and the battery kicks in again once the generator output (60kW) is exceeded.

The way I look at it is pretty much the other way around: whenever the engine runs, the car should make it count, as an engine that works hard is running more efficiently than an engine that runs on a partial load. There are two situations in which the engine propels the car but will not (try to) recharge the battery in the process. This is either when the ICE is started for heating purposes or when the engine is running with less than 5 liters (or so) in the tank. In these situations, the engine will only propel the car and not recharge the battery. It will not even go into parallel mode. So, the engine runs less efficiently as it could.

In the first situation, I tend to force charging the battery by means of the charge button. In the second situation, that does not work, as charge mode is not available then.

I am mainly referring to the short bursts that happen if you push the pedal just a bit harder and you really only need an extra 10kW for a few seconds. The engine could provide that easily running at say 2000 rpm and the whole thing would sound much nicer.
Of course, in serial mode when the battery is depleted, or the car is in save or charge mode, it makes more sense to give the engine power priority as it does now.

 

[anko]

I am mainly referring to the short bursts that happen if you push the pedal just a bit harder and you really only need an extra 10kW for a few seconds. The engine could provide that easily running at say 2000 rpm and the whole thing would sound much nicer.

That bit was understood

But somehow, I manage to do without these extra 10 kW easily during my 'within EV range' trips. Even when towing. But may this is because I have the EV Box installed.

 

[Fecn]

Er, do you mean the cup holders I have in the fold down arm rest in the rear? The apparent cup holder in the boot is for the removable ash tray used in some markets

Yes... those will be the ones I mean... I've never actually sat in the back myself... just had my parents complaining that there were no cup holders when I was ferrying them around a few days ago.

Cheers!!

 

[Fecn]

32A over J1772 .. that is only ~7kw ... would be nice .... but I guess:
- Many house are not equipped for provide 7kw from a 220v line
- Car on board charger that does convert 220v ac into 300v dc ... possibly has been designed for take up to 16amp .. for make it cheaper

I know that the Nissan Leaf has the choice to have it with either 3.4KW or 7KW chargers onboard... and the owners generally seem to feel that the 7KW option is well worth the money as it means you can get a reasonable top-up charge with a couple of hours sitting on the driveway... Chargemaster gave me a free bump up to the 32A charging station (getting fitted next week), but the PHEV will only ever use 16A as the onboard charger can't do any more. I can understand that the 16A charger would cost less to produce, but it would have been nice to have a optional-extra to take a 32A charge.

 

[Fecn]

ICE does not need 12V battery for start up
12V is inherit from old design ... ECU, light, etc ... need a 12V source
Add a small 14.4v LiIon battery would be a better solution then what it is now, but there is no need for any 12V battery at all ... first of all, there are 80 LiIon cells in the car, so 12V is already available by taking the voltage from the first 3 LiIon cells .. assuming this is not possible due to generated unbalance in the battery pack (if car has a proper balancing that is somehow mandatory, then it would not be an issue), then is possible to use a DC-DC step down that would be more effective

... and of course, they do already have a suitable DC-DC step-down conveter already fitted to the vehicle, which is used to charge up the chunk of lead in the boot from the LiIon battery. For the life of me, I cannot understand why vehicle manufacturers (not just Mitsubishi) spend so much time and effort shedding weight from cars, only to then stick 20kg of lead in there to lug around.

 

[jaapv]

Another couple of things for the list....

no option for a 32A charger

..

32A over J1772 .. that is only ~7kw ... would be nice .... but I guess:
- Many house are not equipped for provide 7kw from a 220v line
- Car on board charger that does convert 220v ac into 300v dc ... possibly has been designed for take up to 16amp .. for make it cheaper

... and yes... having a lead-acid battery is pretty pointless given that it doesn't need the cranking amps that lead-acid can provide... Surely a lighter 14.4v Li-ion pack would have been a better choice.

ICE does not need 12V battery for start up
12V is inherit from old design ... ECU, light, etc ... need a 12V source
Add a small 14.4v LiIon battery would be a better solution then what it is now, but there is no need for any 12V battery at all ... first of all, there are 80 LiIon cells in the car, so 12V is already available by taking the voltage from the first 3 LiIon cells .. assuming this is not possible due to generated unbalance in the battery pack (if car has a proper balancing that is somehow mandatory, then it would not be an issue), then is possible to use a DC-DC step down that would be more effective

Well, I do have 400 V three phase/ 45A in my house, quite a few private houses have, either for the cooking range or for the sauna, or both. The problem with fitting a CHAdeMo charger is that these cost thousands of Euros.

 

[zzcoopej]

Er, do you mean the cup holders I have in the fold down arm rest in the rear? The apparent cup holder in the boot is for the removable ash tray used in some markets

Yes... those will be the ones I mean... I've never actually sat in the back myself... just had my parents complaining that there were no cup holders when I was ferrying them around a few days ago.

Cheers!!

There are also bottle holders in both the front and back doors which fit most drink bottles, however not so practical for a disposable coffee cup which is where the armrest comes in.