Lindqvist method : DIY BMU Battery Reset

[Mitch]

To Mitch's previous comment - I suspect that running this procedure on every charge would have negative results quite quickly, however, as an occasional procedure, I don't see how it can (coming back to my suggestion that you can't put more charge into battery than it can take). Yes, continually overcharging a battery kills the cells meaning it can't hold charge once you unplug it, thus suggestion that repeatedly doing this could be an issue.

Lindqvist with the reset and missing data about the battery, can end up with overcharging.

Didn't need to get dirty hands. Lifting off the drink holder in the back next to the charge port revealed a little black box with the part number 9499D054.
Plenty on Ebay, used for $100-200 from the UK.
So far it seems at least the 2014-2017 UK models have the same battery control module as mine.

Anyhow ordering a spare to mess around with is cheaper than this so called "smoothing procedure" that costs about $300 where I live and does not stay resident either.

I would say, same part number is not telling anything about the FW.
But, the 2019 has a different part number

I believe the PHEV must have a protection that force the ICE to start immediately when any of the cell in the battery go below 3.0v ... at least I hope this is the case ... else they would have done a quite questionable firmware in my view ... soon ... thanks to many people that did rest the battery, we will know how low the voltage at rest and at load is allowed to go down.

Als far as I know, no. This is also "done" from BMU by giving back "Battery is empty".


Again, the only way is a DBCAM. With this procedure, the battery will be completely discharged and then recharge. This is the ONLY way to measure, how much energy the battery can take and use.

 

[elm70]

Thanks for reminding me

It is just that the Lyndqvist method seems the least invasive way and I would like to see if it would work with a replacement BCM that might have older firmware in it or something.
+ I can keep things as they are if I don't touch the original in case something goes wrong when I do try that DIY triple procedure.

It has alway been handy to have a back up and 70UK pounds for the used BCM won't break the bank with the current exchange rate, thanks Boris Johnson

I agree it will be very interesting to know what happen when you replace the BMU

I think it can even happen that the car will nor recognize this unit ... or it might be register in some ECU ....

If Mitsubishi did consider to replace a BMU .. they might have consider too how to handle replacing BMU without replacing the battery
Getting a 2nd hand BMU ... it might have even a worst SOH then your own BMU ...

PS: The MUT procedure with BMU reset does not look much different then Lyndqvist ... both result look identical .. so same impact on warranty ... which might be zero ... still my battery warranty expire in 2y or 17.000km ... anyhow ... my extra risk is close to zero in my view ... but yes ... if you can transparently replace the BMU and put it back in case of need ... possibly the warranty is kept in a more safe way

 

[elm70]

To Mitch's previous comment - I suspect that running this procedure on every charge would have negative results quite quickly, however, as an occasional procedure, I don't see how it can (coming back to my suggestion that you can't put more charge into battery than it can take). Yes, continually overcharging a battery kills the cells meaning it can't hold charge once you unplug it, thus suggestion that repeatedly doing this could be an issue.

Lindqvist with the reset and missing data about the battery, can end up with overcharging.

Didn't need to get dirty hands. Lifting off the drink holder in the back next to the charge port revealed a little black box with the part number 9499D054.
Plenty on Ebay, used for $100-200 from the UK.
So far it seems at least the 2014-2017 UK models have the same battery control module as mine.

Anyhow ordering a spare to mess around with is cheaper than this so called "smoothing procedure" that costs about $300 where I live and does not stay resident either.

I would say, same part number is not telling anything about the FW.
But, the 2019 has a different part number

I believe the PHEV must have a protection that force the ICE to start immediately when any of the cell in the battery go below 3.0v ... at least I hope this is the case ... else they would have done a quite questionable firmware in my view ... soon ... thanks to many people that did rest the battery, we will know how low the voltage at rest and at load is allowed to go down.

Als far as I know, no. This is also "done" from BMU by giving back "Battery is empty".


Again, the only way is a DBCAM. With this procedure, the battery will be completely discharged and then recharge. This is the ONLY way to measure, how much energy the battery can take and use.

Overcharing is never an issue .. the charging process end based on voltage of the battery .. not based on SOH ...
It is only when the battery is discharged without and 2h rest ... that SOH has a critical role on define how long EV mode should be kept going on.

As said before .. DBCAM can't full discharge the battery .. so the end result is still a guess

DBCAM procedure need appointment with a service center, and it take around 24h ... already the 24h is a mayor concern for me ... but I believe this service is not cheap either .. unless provided for free if people complain about poor EV range and battery degradation apparently out of normality ... still is up each individual service center to decide how to handle this special case.

 

[elm70]

Anyhow .... only real consideration

The Lindqvist method .. it might invalidate the battery warranty

After this method the BMU got reset, and the age of the battery will go back to default 60 days ... so easy to spot this from any Mitsubish service center.

Still BMU reset can happen also for natural reason ... our YouTube friend Andy, got a BMU reset due to a mistake from Mitsubishi service center ...

Plus ... if somebody decide to remove the 12v battery on his own .. he might accidentally reset the BMU ... so ... at the end is a BUG from Mitsubishi, which I think it should not invalid the warranty .. unless Mitsubishi can prove that car owner perform intentionally the Lindqvist method

In my case Mitsubishi would need to find my posts here, and associate my real identity to my alias here ... which is not really a difficult task, since there are not so many PHEV here in Poland (but more and more 2nd hand PHEV from NL are coming here)

PS: When I got my PHEV here ... it was over 96% in SOH, with 120.000km and almost 3 years old ... it is possible my PHEV was already receiving a sort of reset ... but a good one, since battery age was looking correct ... so ... maybe some 2nd hand dealer had the tool since long time for "hack" the SOH, and please the potential customer with a full EV range car. ...

 

[Pomst]

Anyhow .... only real consideration

The Lindqvist method .. it might invalidate the battery warranty

After this method the BMU got reset, and the age of the battery will go back to default 60 days ... so easy to spot this from any Mitsubish service center.

Still BMU reset can happen also for natural reason ... our YouTube friend Andy, got a BMU reset due to a mistake from Mitsubishi service center ...

Plus ... if somebody decide to remove the 12v battery on his own .. he might accidentally reset the BMU ... so ... at the end is a BUG from Mitsubishi, which I think it should not invalid the warranty .. unless Mitsubishi can prove that car owner perform intentionally the Lindqvist method

In my case Mitsubishi would need to find my posts here, and associate my real identity to my alias here ... which is not really a difficult task, since there are not so many PHEV here in Poland (but more and more 2nd hand PHEV from NL are coming here)

PS: When I got my PHEV here ... it was over 96% in SOH, with 120.000km and almost 3 years old ... it is possible my PHEV was already receiving a sort of reset ... but a good one, since battery age was looking correct ... so ... maybe some 2nd hand dealer had the tool since long time for "hack" the SOH, and please the potential customer with a full EV range car. ...

Is anyone able to answer what exact values exist when reading out the data via MUT cable?
If we were able to see what value are changing during the Lindqvist and start fiddling around with them to see exactly what value gives this desired result then we will be able to get simple CANbus commands to replicate this method.
Perhaps even without reseting the battery age.

 

[Mitch]

Thanks for reminding me

It is just that the Lyndqvist method seems the least invasive way and I would like to see if it would work with a replacement BCM that might have older firmware in it or something.
+ I can keep things as they are if I don't touch the original in case something goes wrong when I do try that DIY triple procedure.

It has alway been handy to have a back up and 70UK pounds for the used BCM won't break the bank with the current exchange rate, thanks Boris Johnson

I agree it will be very interesting to know what happen when you replace the BMU

I think it can even happen that the car will nor recognize this unit ... or it might be register in some ECU ....

If Mitsubishi did consider to replace a BMU .. they might have consider too how to handle replacing BMU without replacing the battery
Getting a 2nd hand BMU ... it might have even a worst SOH then your own BMU ...

PS: The MUT procedure with BMU reset does not look much different then Lyndqvist ... both result look identical .. so same impact on warranty ... which might be zero ... still my battery warranty expire in 2y or 17.000km ... anyhow ... my extra risk is close to zero in my view ... but yes ... if you can transparently replace the BMU and put it back in case of need ... possibly the warranty is kept in a more safe way

There is a clear instruction for dealers, what to do when changing the BMU.
You need to add manual all informations into the BMU.

MUT procedure and Lindqvist are different!
With MUT, there are too "resets" available:
1. Batt. capa. estimated info. reset
2. Control information reset

Is anyone able to answer what exact values exist when reading out the data via MUT cable?
If we were able to see what value are changing during the Lindqvist and start fiddling around with them to see exactly what value gives this desired result then we will be able to get simple CANbus commands to replicate this method.
Perhaps even without reseting the battery age.

sure, here is the list: http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander_iii/online/Service_Manual_2013/2019_phev/54/html/M154945550019700ENG.HTM

 

[Mitch]

As said before .. DBCAM can't full discharge the battery .. so the end result is still a guess

DBCAM procedure need appointment with a service center, and it take around 24h ... already the 24h is a mayor concern for me ... but I believe this service is not cheap either .. unless provided for free if people complain about poor EV range and battery degradation apparently out of normality ... still is up each individual service center to decide how to handle this special case.

No, wrong.

1. DBCAM is a thing of 5 minutes
a) connect MUT
b) connect charger
c) start DBCAM
that's it

Rest is done but the car automatically.

It will take as long as a full charge + the discharge (approx. 30 minutes)


2. DBCAM can and will fully discharge the battery
a) it is starting AC and Heating in parallel and run it till the battery is empty
b) it fully re-charge the battery

 

[elm70]

No, wrong.

1. DBCAM is a thing of 5 minutes
a) connect MUT
b) connect charger
c) start DBCAM
that's it

Rest is done but the car automatically.

It will take as long as a full charge + the discharge (approx. 30 minutes)


2. DBCAM can and will fully discharge the battery
a) it is starting AC and Heating in parallel and run it till the battery is empty
b) it fully re-charge the battery

By 24h I imply that car need to stay over nigh at the car service center ... so .. 1 day to bring the car, taxi or service car back .. and next day for collect the car ... that is extra trouble in my book

discharge is 30min ?
Then battery will be no near to 0% SOC
(AC+Heating is using 4kw .. so 30min can suck 2kwh .. assuming ideal SOC at arrival 30% that is around 3.6kwh ... so it will be needed around 1h only for fully discharge the battery)

As far as I know, or better, from what I did read around .. DBCAM bring down the battery to around 16% SOC ... and already defining SOC is tricky

Anyhow ... I doubt the DBCAM can be initiated without at least 2h of car rest after drive to the service center

So .. ideally ... 2h rest + 1h discharge + 6h charging .. so total 9h .. so this task is done overnight , so car need to stay 2 days, 1 night at the service center

 

[Mitch]

It is easy...

Drive the car empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive it empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive.
SOC will be at approx. 24%

Initiate DBCAM = 5 minutes

DBCAM will discharge = approx. 30 minutes (Heating is 4kw, AC is 1kw max.)
SOC = ? I don't know, but tech doc of Mitsubishi says empty

No rest is needed, Why should it be??

So it takes in total approx. 6 hours, which can be done easily in one day at the workshop.
I'm doing it at home.

 

[Pomst]

It is easy...

Drive the car empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive it empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive.
SOC will be at approx. 24%

Initiate DBCAM = 5 minutes

DBCAM will discharge = approx. 30 minutes (Heating is 4kw, AC is 1kw max.)
SOC = ? I don't know, but tech doc of Mitsubishi says empty

No rest is needed, Why should it be??

So it takes in total approx. 6 hours, which can be done easily in one day at the workshop.
I'm doing it at home.

Rest could be needed for cell balance since the discharge current is probably very low.

sure, here is the list: http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander ... 700ENG.HTM

Do you mean that all of those values are editable via MUT?
Or, are all of them reset during Lindqvist? I highly doubt its the latter.

 

[Mitch]

Not all of them can be edited by MUT.
e.g. 4xx are measured numbers

With Lindqvist, everything! is gone.

 

[elm70]

It is easy...

Drive the car empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive it empty, shut down, restart in EV, drive.
SOC will be at approx. 24%

Initiate DBCAM = 5 minutes

DBCAM will discharge = approx. 30 minutes (Heating is 4kw, AC is 1kw max.)
SOC = ? I don't know, but tech doc of Mitsubishi says empty

No rest is needed, Why should it be??

So it takes in total approx. 6 hours, which can be done easily in one day at the workshop.
I'm doing it at home.

I don't think the DBCAM procedure is something supposed to be done at home as many time as people wish.

So ... I believe doing this is equal to Lindqvist under the aspect of losing the warranty .. actually is even worst, since Lindqvist result can also happen by accident ... a DBCAM is not an accident

Heating + ACC is around 4kw ... I know it ... this is standard defrost program in the PHEV MMCS .. and I use this often in the winter morning.
30min ... is the max timer in the PHEV apps too .. strange coincidence

Did you monitor SOC while DBCAM disharge happen ?

I'm quite sure the battery never go below 16% SOC.

Since without a proper rest time of 2h, there is no proper guess of SOC ... start a DBCAM procedure without a relevant reference is a bit "strange"

Anyhow ... we are going out of this thread topic ...

DBCAM vs Lindqvist should be consider elsewhere ...

Here we should try to consider how we can make this method more "accessible" .. and discuss the side effect of such reset

 

[jaapv]

Well, isn't that the whole point? The method apparently allows a deeper discharge than Mitsubishi intended, possibly beyond 16%, who knows? Not a good idea for longevity of the battery.

 

[Mitch]

I don't think the DBCAM procedure is something supposed to be done at home as many time as people wish.

No it isn't, but you can easy do it.
And, you don't do it once are week. 1 to 2 times a year is fine.

Heating + ACC is around 4kw ... I know it ... this is standard defrost program in the PHEV MMCS .. and I use this often in the winter morning.
30min ... is the max timer in the PHEV apps too .. strange coincidence

Heating + ACC (cooling) can not be done by the app, nor MMS/SDA. Only Heating or cooling.
With MUT and the DBCAM operation, the car can do both at the same time = 4kw heating + 1kw cooling

Since without a proper rest time of 2h, there is no proper guess of SOC ... start a DBCAM procedure without a relevant reference is a bit "strange"

The is a reference, set by Mitsubishi in the BMU

DBCAM vs Lindqvist should be consider elsewhere ...

Here we should try to consider how we can make this method more "accessible" .. and discuss the side effect of such reset

This method, if you mean Lindqvist should NEVER be considered. It only drops you an error code (also this is well documented from Mitsubishi)
And if this would be happen by accident, you need to go to your dealer to setup the right values into the BUM again.

An again, DBCAM is available for everyone for just a few bugs by buying a cable.

 

[elm70]

Heating + ACC (cooling) can not be done by the app, nor MMS/SDA. Only Heating or cooling.
With MUT and the DBCAM operation, the car can do both at the same time = 4kw heating + 1kw cooling

This method, if you mean Lindqvist should NEVER be considered. It only drops you an error code (also this is well documented from Mitsubishi)
And if this would be happen by accident, you need to go to your dealer to setup the right values into the BUM again.

An again, DBCAM is available for everyone for just a few bugs by buying a cable.

Heating + AC ... in my book is same as the defrost program .. using AC in conjunction with heating is relative normal .. anyhow .. 4kw or 5kw does not make much of the difference ... as said assuming car has 30% SOC .. fully discharge need 3.6kwh .. which is around 43minutes

About the Lindqvist ... I did not got any error in my PHEV ... the car just reset the BMU SOH and some other parameters ... yes I have read somebody got some error using this method, but it was not my case

So ... my case can be associated to a normal 12v battery disconnection, which as far as I know it is allowed inside the warranty

The DBCAM procedure should be used only by Mitsubishi service, having access to such equipment implies to potentially make any possible mess and mistake on the car .. I expect Mitsubishi to register and record each service on their car, so having no record of the DBCAM , possibly done multiple times .. it sounds to me that any warranty claim could be more challenging then not using the Lindqvist

Anyhow .. having said that ... if I would have the equipment, I would prefer to make the BMU reset with the cable/software instead of Lindqvist (but not the DBCAM .. as said .. for me this is a waste of time) ... but between cost (not much) , delay from shipping from china, plus hacking drivers on a Win32 PC ... the Lindqvist method is looking to me way more easy to achieve.

PS:
After the 2nd charge, SOH already drop to 37.8Ah .. so the BMU does quickly react to the real SOH

PPS: The main HUGE difference ... is that after a reset of BMU, the mapping between SOC and Voltage after rest is changed a lot
26% was ~3.81v
26% is now ~3.79v

Only because of this the real SOH is messed up, and the battery is forced to stay all the time above 3.84v .. which is looking a waste

I have seen post in FB of high mileage PHEV .. which show even higher voltage for 26% SOC .. almost 3.84 ...

The question is :

Is there any reason why old battery should be consider to have a nominal voltage higher then before .. or any reason why the low SOC should be avoided in old or more consumed battery ?

I never heard of this .. so I guess here Mitsubishi is over protective on weak battery ... possibly for have even an extra buffer for avoid warranty claims ... or maybe they are just plain wrong on interpreting the effect of higher IR on aged battery

 

[Mitch]

The error is not visible in your display or similar.
The error code is stored in the ETACS, so Mitsubishi and the dealer can read it.

DBCAM is not infecting your warranty nor tracked.
There is a law in Germany and I think it is in hole Europe, that every garage needs to have access to the solutions (SW + HW) of the vendor.
So in this case any garage can buy MUT and use it. Vendor is not allowed to restrict it nor it is allowed to infect warranty.

Long story short, everybody can buy and use the SW.

I'm absolutely happy, if the L-Method worked out for you, but I still want to warn people, not to do it.
It is not safe and you can end up with a broken battery.

 

[elm70]

Ok ...

Even assuming there is an error, that Mitsubishi can read ... this does not implies much in my view

Plug and unplug the 12v battery is part of the normal maintenance and people are free to do it .. so ... warranty wise I'm relative fine ... especially since it is not needed a complex procedure for this method .. it is only the 12v disconnect while charging .. which can also happen in natural way .. the guy that find this method, it happen by accident, not intentionally

About risk ....

Clarified that there is no risk to over charge the battery

Clarified that the risk to over discharge the battery has to be seen .. if there is or not a low voltage protection when the car is in EV mode

Still .. yes ... I see people in FB with SOH below 60% using this method and jumping back to 100% SOH .. it will be very interesting how BMU might handle low voltage cases ... definitely this method need "caution" , since we open a door which might cause over discharge .. and definitely cause to discharge the battery a bit below what was originally intendet

BTW ... since you did the DBCAM method .. are you able to provide us the Voltage of the pack after 2h rest in low SOC ?
This is the most important factor after the reset .. it is looking that the BMU allow 70% battery usage only when it is new .. but then it rise the voltage per the same SOC .. so causing to reducing unnaturally the SOH

PS: I did hack my keyfob, for get the AC/Heating by a double click ... is this also a reason for lose warranty on the battery ? Anyhow ... in my case I am very confident that I will not have any need for the battery warranty ... and I'm not sure how much I'm shortening the life of the battery using this hack ... time will tell .. I'm still hoping soon battery price can go down, and people might be able to DIY replace the PHEV battery even with a higher capacity battery pack ... but ... at this rate ... my hope is getting less and less .. my PHEV is 6y old .. so ... in 5/6 years it might be natural to get it replaced anyhow ... still .. I can see around 5 batteries for sales in local 2nd hand market ... from 1000 euro to 3000 euro ... even a 13.8kwh 2019 pack for 1600 euros ... even out of warranty it might be possible to get a replacement battery for a decent money

 

[jaapv]

I think there may be much more to this than meets the eye, given that the range in use doesn't decline that much at all on well-used cars, despite the BMU settings.

 

[elm70]

What is the definition of "well-used cars" ?



I never left fully charged my PHEV for more then few hours.
I never used it for towing
I did avoid as much as possible to use B5 while breaking hard for avoid high peak of charge current

Still in the last 2 years of owners I see battery decline from 36Ah down to 32.5Ah ... and it was -10% in EV range visible

People that never charge the PHEV, and never use save and charge and never touch the B setting .. these are the one that kept as good as possible the battery .. but actually they almost don't use the battery too

 

[Mitch]

Ok ...

Even assuming there is an error, that Mitsubishi can read ... this does not implies much in my view

Plug and unplug the 12v battery is part of the normal maintenance and people are free to do it .. so ... warranty wise I'm relative fine ... especially since it is not needed a complex procedure for this method .. it is only the 12v disconnect while charging .. which can also happen in natural way .. the guy that find this method, it happen by accident, not intentionally

About risk ....

Clarified that there is no risk to over charge the battery

Clarified that the risk to over discharge the battery has to be seen .. if there is or not a low voltage protection when the car is in EV mode

Still .. yes ... I see people in FB with SOH below 60% using this method and jumping back to 100% SOH .. it will be very interesting how BMU might handle low voltage cases ... definitely this method need "caution" , since we open a door which might cause over discharge .. and definitely cause to discharge the battery a bit below what was originally intendet

BTW ... since you did the DBCAM method .. are you able to provide us the Voltage of the pack after 2h rest in low SOC ?
This is the most important factor after the reset .. it is looking that the BMU allow 70% battery usage only when it is new .. but then it rise the voltage per the same SOC .. so causing to reducing unnaturally the SOH

PS: I did hack my keyfob, for get the AC/Heating by a double click ... is this also a reason for lose warranty on the battery ? Anyhow ... in my case I am very confident that I will not have any need for the battery warranty ... and I'm not sure how much I'm shortening the life of the battery using this hack ... time will tell .. I'm still hoping soon battery price can go down, and people might be able to DIY replace the PHEV battery even with a higher capacity battery pack ... but ... at this rate ... my hope is getting less and less .. my PHEV is 6y old .. so ... in 5/6 years it might be natural to get it replaced anyhow ... still .. I can see around 5 batteries for sales in local 2nd hand market ... from 1000 euro to 3000 euro ... even a 13.8kwh 2019 pack for 1600 euros ... even out of warranty it might be possible to get a replacement battery for a decent money

The error code which is store point direct to miss calculation in the BMU and can not happen by just disconnect the 12V
Anyway, most vendors, and I guess also Mitsubishi, don't care really.

Over charge and over discharge can happen, because the BMU is missing the information of the battery and has no reference anymore.

BTW: the Lindqvist method was not found by mistake. One guy, not Lindqvist, resetted his battery by mistake, but there is no proof and I don't believe this.
Lindqvist has found this "hack" by just listing to the car.

The keyfob hack should do nothing

I think there may be much more to this than meets the eye, given that the range in use doesn't decline that much at all on well-used cars, despite the BMU settings.

I'm absolut with you. I don't care abut the battery at all, just drive the car.
Now in summer, I can go between 55 and 63km with one charge (even Watchdog is saying something about a bad SOH).

What is the definition of "well-used cars" ?



I never left fully charged my PHEV for more then few hours.
I never used it for towing
I did avoid as much as possible to use B5 while breaking hard for avoid high peak of charge current

Still in the last 2 years of owners I see battery decline from 36Ah down to 32.5Ah ... and it was -10% in EV range visible

People that never charge the PHEV, and never use save and charge and never touch the B setting .. these are the one that kept as good as possible the battery .. but actually they almost don't use the battery too

There is a good information about our battery from a trusted person.
One nice sentence is "Don't baby the battery"

And this what I do. I always charge at home, also if it is not empty.
Car is parking with 100% SOC for longer time, days sometimes.
I only drive in B5 (BTW this is the recommended setting from Mitsubishi)
I just drive (see my KM)