Newbie - tomorrow is the day...

[anko]

So unlike above, I travel everywhere in B0 (coasting) only flicking the "gear stick" to B3 and B5 when I need to brake rather than use my foot to control it. Overall the effect is the same, it is just a matter of personal style.

Just incase newbies missed this point from Greendwarf, remember the FOOT brake will still use regen whenever possible, regardless of the regen paddle settings. So even in B0 if you put your foot on the brake, the power gauge on the dash to the left of the speedo will confirm regen (ie the blue "Charge" section) just like using the regen paddles.

Effectively, the B0-B5 regen paddles just change the "zero point" ie what happens when you are not touching the accelerator OR brake. B0 = freewheel, B5 = slow down without touching the foot brake.

The B level also controls the maximum amount of regenerative power that is allowed to flow into the battery. In B5 a higher regenerative charge current is allowed then in B0. This means that the maximum regenerative stopping power in B0 is less than in B5, even with the brake pedal depressed. So, at some point, to achieve a certain amount of stopping power, friction brakes will be needed in B0 but not in B5.

Probably this is only noticeable at somewhat higher speed, because at low speed stopping power is always relatively low, even if stopping force is high

BTW: In my car, the maximum amount of regenerative power flowing into the battery has been reduced over time (as my battery started to degrade to prevent it from further damage?), so I see no difference between B0 and B5 anymore. But I did see a clear difference in the first three years.

Jeremy, see you on the first row in a minute ;-)

 

[anko]

Does anyone know at what point(s) the brake pads actually apply braking force to the discs ?

I have been able to 'read' brake line pressure from the ODB port, telling me just that. Much more practical: when the regenerative power stops increasing when you press harder on the brake pedal.

 

[anko]

Jeremy, see you on the first row in a minute ;-)

Sorry mate. He didn't deserve that. At all!

 

[greendwarf]

Not always - I also used engine braking with the gears and would coast in neutral sometimes with the engine off. I also need to do something with my left hand. :lol:

 

[cornclose]

Be aware that braking in B0 adds only a couple of kW to regen, so the vast majority of braking will be by heating up your disks using the pads. So you're wasting most of the potential kinetic energy in B0. In B5, it can put over 30kW into the battery when you lift off, and more than 40kW when you press the brake, so far less energy is wasted in the brakes.

Coasting applies some torque (and therefore power) to the motors, so is not "free", though the amounts are small. I don't understand all these posts about the marvel of coasting in B0, when you can coast quite easily in B5 - any time the power meter is flat, no power is going to the battery or the motors. And who "over-brakes"? In B5, you can lift your foot totally off the accelerator and slow down, or lift it slightly and coast, or anything in between. The throttle isn't an on-off switch!

I have tried this over the last few days on a few journeys I have made.

Since I've had the Outlander (from early October) I have driven in B0 all the time, but used the paddles and/or stick to select B1-B5 depending on conditions BEFORE I then apply the foot brake (if needed at all). In essence, probably 90%+ of my driving has been without touching the brake pedal, and even when I do use it, it's only for the last few meters at very low speeds when regen has dropped off to next to nothing (and simply to avoid crashing into something!!).

However, with driving in B5 all the time there appears to be a very small band of throttle input available to 'balance' car between using some power to drive the wheels and regen. i.e. finding the 'coast' position is much more akward than it is to simply select B0. Not impossible, though.

It would seem to me so far that in B0 and using as much available kinetic energy to keep the car rolling is more efficient that trying to balance between using power and regen in B5, since recovery of energy in regen is not 100% efficient.

However, I will persevere and see how it pans out over the coming weeks. I suspect I will alternate between various driving techniques depending on conditions and mood..

 

[VillageIdiotDan]

Eloquently put Cornclose, that was my understanding; that to not "spend" the energy by coasting in B0 is better than accelerating that bit further down the road and needing B5 to slow you to a stop. Naturally, if that means you're not maintaining a safe speed with traffic conditions you may be forced to do the latter .

Stupid question for anyone: is it cheaper to "charge" your battery from the petrol engine if you're on a long run and have to run the engine anyway. Or is it cheaper just to charge it when you get home? I assume the latter!

I got 33mpg at a steady 70mph on the M4 last week using only petrol. Thought I may see what that looks like with the charge button on.

 

[greendwarf]

However, with driving in B5 all the time there appears to be a very small band of throttle input available to 'balance' car between using some power to drive the wheels and regen. i.e. finding the 'coast' position is much more akward than it is to simply select B0. Not impossible, though.

It would seem to me so far that in B0 and using as much available kinetic energy to keep the car rolling is more efficient that trying to balance between using power and regen in B5, since recovery of energy in regen is not 100% efficient.

Also whilst ThudnBlundr is fiddling about trying to "coast" in B5 I am already hovering over the brake pedal with my right foot in case some idiot pedestrian, cyclist or driver decides attempt suicide under the front of my car - a daily occurrence in Central London! :twisted:

 

[anko]

Also whilst ThudnBlundr is fiddling about trying to "coast" in B5 I am already hovering over the brake pedal with my right foot in case some idiot pedestrian, cyclist or driver decides attempt suicide under the front of my car - a daily occurrence in Central London! :twisted:

Coasting or not, such risks are always there. How do you deal with those while not coasting?

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Stupid question for anyone: is it cheaper to "charge" your battery from the petrol engine if you're on a long run and have to run the engine anyway. Or is it cheaper just to charge it when you get home? I assume the latter!

Unless your kWhs are very expensive, it's better to charge at home. But don't forget that the car is charging itself half the time anyway when the battery shows empty, adding a mile or so before running on EV. If you can charge in parallel mode at higher speeds when it's more efficient, and use EV mode when it would be less efficient charging in series mode at lower speeds, you should be able to make some efficiency gains

Also whilst ThudnBlundr is fiddling about trying to "coast" in B5 I am already hovering over the brake pedal with my right foot in case some idiot pedestrian, cyclist or driver decides attempt suicide under the front of my car - a daily occurrence in Central London! :twisted:

I don't have to "fiddle"; it's not that tricky even for an old bloke like me. And as anko says, what do you do when you're driving normally? Me, I use left foot braking so my foot is always covering the brake pedal if necessary. And don't forget that the FMCS would brake before you've had a chance to think about it, if it's fitted

 

[elm70]

...
Me, I use left foot braking so my foot is always covering the brake pedal if necessary. And don't forget that the FMCS would brake before you've had a chance to think about it, if it's fitted

Is this what driving school tell to people in UK ?

Not only to drive on the left side of the street, but also to use the left foot for braking ? :shock: :?

PS: If right is right ... left is wrong :mrgreen: .. in some languages left is also synonymous of evil :evil:

 

[VillageIdiotDan]

....charge in parallel mode at higher speeds when it's more efficient, and use EV mode when it would be less efficient charging in series mode at lower speeds

Thanks ThudnBlundr. Sorry to labour the point, just want to make sure I understand. So you mean that, knowing that the PHEV will charge the battery a bit even without pressing the "charge" button, it's better to pre-empt and do this small amount of charge on a motorway (when it is choosing to be in parallel mode) than waiting for a twisty 1:3 hill when it will be in series mode? This makes sense if I've understood correctly.

 

[VillageIdiotDan]

Is this what driving school tell to people in UK ?

Definitely not. I understand it's a technique people with experience in motorsport have mastered

 

[elm70]

Is this what driving school tell to people in UK ?

Definitely not. I understand it's a technique people with experience in motorsport have mastered

Yes ... go-kart need one foot for accelerate and one for braking...

Sport car with a traditional gear box, as far as I know are still using braking with right foot, and the trick is to accelerate and brake on the same time with the right foot only :ugeek:

Anyhow ... drive on traffic with an automatic car .. I think it is more safe to drive with one foot only ...

 

[anko]

Is this what driving school tell to people in UK ?

Not only to drive on the left side of the street, but also to use the left foot for braking ? :shock: :?

Hamilton has won the F1 world championship 3, no wait 4 times driving this way. Can't be that bad :lol: :lol:

 

[anko]

Stupid question for anyone: is it cheaper to "charge" your battery from the petrol engine if you're on a long run and have to run the engine anyway. Or is it cheaper just to charge it when you get home? I assume the latter!

Unless your kWhs are very expensive, it's better to charge at home. But don't forget that the car is charging itself half the time anyway when the battery shows empty, adding a mile or so before running on EV. If you can charge in parallel mode at higher speeds when it's more efficient, and use EV mode when it would be less efficient charging in series mode at lower speeds, you should be able to make some efficiency gains

Glad I didn't respond, as I really thought he mentioned "charge using the engine while stationary"

 

[elm70]

....charge in parallel mode at higher speeds when it's more efficient, and use EV mode when it would be less efficient charging in series mode at lower speeds

Thanks ThudnBlundr. Sorry to labour the point, just want to make sure I understand. So you mean that, knowing that the PHEV will charge the battery a bit even without pressing the "charge" button, it's better to pre-empt and do this small amount of charge on a motorway (when it is choosing to be in parallel mode) than waiting for a twisty 1:3 hill when it will be in series mode? This makes sense if I've understood correctly.

The goal is to arrive at destination (which allow to charge the car from the main electric network) with zero EV range left
It is always more convenient to charge the main battery from a plug, then not using fuel in charge mode

Based on the route to destination , if the trip length is above the EV range then the driver can decide when to consume the battery , when to keep it on hold or even when to charge it.

There is no real control between serial and parallel mode ... what we know is that parallel mode is possible only above ~65km/h, assuming the accelerator pedal is not push hard .. else for high power demand, the Outlander will switch in serial mode.

My technique when I drive over 50km .. is to consume first the battery .. at least around half of the available capacity ... then based on the route, at motorway I'm using charge or save ... or even nothing if the trip is very long (actually I may use intermittently save at the beginning for avoid to stress too much the battery, in a long trip) .. but then I plan to drive in EV mode for the end part of the trip outside motorway, or if I'm crossing villages using country side roads (which normally have 90km/h speed limit) ... I'm using charge in the fast road and use EV while crossing villages ... the trick part is to charge enough from motorway at the end of the trip for make the last km outside motorway in EV mode.

In the past, I was alternating charge and ev mode while running on motorway (charging up to 10km range, and then doing 10km in EV mode) .. but I'm not sure it bring any real fuel saving, but definitely it cause more stress to the battery

Anyhow ... there is no receipt for best fuel efficiency ... it is all about the specific trip that need to be done.

If I'm unable to charge for multiple days, then I'm keeping some EV range buffer when I arrive to destinations .. this does allow to start AC before enter in the car .. that is very nice in summer / summer vacations.

 

[elm70]

Hamilton has won the F1 world championship 3, no wait 4 times driving this way. Can't be that bad :lol: :lol:

Are you saying that in 1 or 2 of his 5 wins, he did use a different technique ?

Anyhow ... F1 in these days, it is just a big go-kart ... an old F1 with manual gearbox .. I'm sure it was driven in a different way :mrgreen:

 

[anko]

Hamilton has won the F1 world championship 3, no wait 4 times driving this way. Can't be that bad :lol: :lol:

Are you saying that in 1 or 2 of his 5 wins, he did use a different technique ?

Anyhow ... F1 in these days, it is just a big go-kart ... an old F1 with manual gearbox .. I'm sure it was driven in a different way :mrgreen:

I guess I should have written "4, no wait 5" as a reference to how recent his last victory was. But I lost count myself ;-)

 

[ThudnBlundr]

....charge in parallel mode at higher speeds when it's more efficient, and use EV mode when it would be less efficient charging in series mode at lower speeds

Thanks ThudnBlundr. Sorry to labour the point, just want to make sure I understand. So you mean that, knowing that the PHEV will charge the battery a bit even without pressing the "charge" button, it's better to pre-empt and do this small amount of charge on a motorway (when it is choosing to be in parallel mode) than waiting for a twisty 1:3 hill when it will be in series mode? This makes sense if I've understood correctly.

That's my theory. Left to its own devices, the car will switch from charge to EV and back whenever the battery level is reached. It knows nothing of your route, so will go through that loop "dumbly". If you know you will be doing a higher-speed section (using parallel) followed by a slower section (using series), you could charge for longer and benefit from EV on the slower parts. You could always just select Save on the high speed parts and turn it off for the slower parts, but the potential savings would be less.

Is this what driving school tell to people in UK ?

Definitely not. I understand it's a technique people with experience in motorsport have mastered

It takes a while to master, but it's definitely safer when driving a 2-pedal car, as you don't have to move your right foot off the accelerator and on to the brake in an emergency. They also don't teach double-declutching or "heel and toe" shifting which I need in my classic MG without synchro on first gear, so I had to teach myself that too...

 

[VillageIdiotDan]

Thanks ThudnBlundr, really appreciate your time. This could well help a lot as I have a 16.5 mile round trip to work. Mostly flat with a big-ish drop off a hill half way in, 5 miles of motorway to the door of my work. I'm managing about 19 miles in this weather before EV is spent. What i'll try is just "save" for now on the 2 x 5 motorway miles and see if I can do the rest on EV.