Screaming up a steep hill?

[tlongdon]

It's almost embarrassing.
Travelling more than 20mph up a steep hill/incline has the motor screaming like an asthmatic sewing machine on ecstacy. I slow down just to stop frightening the kids! If it was a manual, I'd be zooming up (this particular hill) in 4th at 50-55mph.

Is this normal? Without a rev counter, can I assume I'm not destroying the engine? It sounds scary.

 

[maddogsetc]

You're not alone!: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=834

 

[maby]

It's"normal" if you are running on a flat battery. If you are driving in a hilly area, keep the battery level up using the "charge" button.

 

[tlongdon]

thanks both for the 'reassurance'.
i can't continue to drive at those low speeds (much quieter roads today, christmas day etc.) so I'll have to put up with it and not look at the faces of people I'm driving past, thinking I'm doing it in 1st gear :lol:

 

[maby]

Just avoid running on a flat battery. When the level is getting down to half full, hit the Save button. If you forget and allow the battery to go flat with some steep climbs ahead, hit the Charge button. The petrol engine is a bit underpowered for the weight of the car on its own - it is fine on the flat, but needs some help from the electric motors on a steep hill.

 

[maddogsetc]

Just avoid running on a flat battery. When the level is getting down to half full, hit the Save button. If you forget and allow the battery to go flat with some steep climbs ahead, hit the Charge button. The petrol engine is a bit underpowered for the weight of the car on its own - it is fine on the flat, but needs some help from the electric motors on a steep hill.

At 20mph as per the OP's post it will be running in serial hybrid mode, which is why he is getting the 'screaming' engine. Not so much about the ICE being underpowered, more that the generator is being asked to provide enough current to keep the battery charge up when the rate of discharge is high due to steep hills. Unfortunately it's a feature of the car and I'm not convinced that using Save will make any difference - it'll just try to maintain the battery charge at a higher level than if the car is left to it's own devices, so ICE is likely to race just the same (unless he Saves enough and then switches Save off when he gets to the hills). Charge will help, but possibly not if the battery is already depleted?

On the other hand, at 50-55mph, with a depleted battery, the car should be in parallel mode and then as Maby says the electric motors will cut-in to provide extra torque to get up the hills. However, you should not notice any increase in engine (ICE) speed in this case as the clutch is engaged and engine speed is directly proportional to road speed, unless the car cannot generate sufficient torque this way in which case it will automatically switch to series mode and the engine revs will then be very high.

 

[gwatpe]

Many forum members have commented on the lack of instrumentation for the ICE. There is an air of desperation when the ICE screams to life when the power demands change, that stems from the non linear ICE operation with road speeds in series parallel mode. How hard would it have been to add a Tachometer as an inner ring to the power gauge. I see so much wasted real estate with the dash instrumentation. I have resorted to a HUD that displays ICE L/100km as well as road speed and ICE rpm on the windscreen. Takes all the guess work out of ICE operation, how much and when and essentially why.

If there was some instrumentation we drivers could work out how the car works, without the mystique that accompanies a minimalist instrumentation dash.

 

[jaapv]

It is no worse than shifting down on a conventional car to climb a hill. It is just the contrast with the normal ultra-quiet operation. Actually it sounds exactly like a DAF 66.

 

[greendwarf]

It's almost embarrassing.
Travelling more than 20mph up a steep hill/incline has the motor screaming like an asthmatic sewing machine on ecstacy. I slow down just to stop frightening the kids! If it was a manual, I'd be zooming up (this particular hill) in 4th at 50-55mph.

Is this normal? Without a rev counter, can I assume I'm not destroying the engine? It sounds scary.

I don't quite understand this. As jaapv says it's similar to shifting down in a normal car to climb a hill, but you say you could do it in 4th at over 50 mph! Was this in a car with a much better power to weight ratio? Yesterday I sailed up a fairly steep hill at 30 mph (the speed limit) in pure EV with no noticeable difference to motor noise from on the flat. My 16 year old 2.0 Avensis used to struggle about half-way up needing to change down to 3rd to maintain that speed, even if I got a run at it.

 

[maby]

It's almost embarrassing.
Travelling more than 20mph up a steep hill/incline has the motor screaming like an asthmatic sewing machine on ecstacy. I slow down just to stop frightening the kids! If it was a manual, I'd be zooming up (this particular hill) in 4th at 50-55mph.

Is this normal? Without a rev counter, can I assume I'm not destroying the engine? It sounds scary.

I don't quite understand this. As jaapv says it's similar to shifting down in a normal car to climb a hill, but you say you could do it in 4th at over 50 mph! Was this in a car with a much better power to weight ratio? Yesterday I sailed up a fairly steep hill at 30 mph (the speed limit) in pure EV with no noticeable difference to motor noise from on the flat. My 16 year old 2.0 Avensis used to struggle about half-way up needing to change down to 3rd to maintain that speed, even if I got a run at it.

Although the OP doesn't explicitly say it, I guess the issue is accelerating up a moderately steep hill with a flat battery. That will race the engine as it tries to get the output of the generator high enough to drive the motors with little assistance from the battery. That's why I was suggesting keeping the battery level up using Save and Charge - I was not suggesting trying to climb the hill in Save mode, I was suggesting using Save before arriving at the hill to ensure there was battery available.

 

[tlongdon]

I don't quite understand this. As jaapv says it's similar to shifting down in a normal car to climb a hill, but you say you could do it in 4th at over 50 mph! Was this in a car with a much better power to weight ratio? Yesterday I sailed up a fairly steep hill at 30 mph (the speed limit) in pure EV with no noticeable difference to motor noise from on the flat. My 16 year old 2.0 Avensis used to struggle about half-way up needing to change down to 3rd to maintain that speed, even if I got a run at it.

Over the past couple of years both my freelander 2 and my smart have happily trotted up this hill at a pace (the smart obviously not as quickly, but certainly not sounding like the sewing machine it actually is).

 

[maddogsetc]

Actually it sounds exactly like a DAF 66.

That's precisely what it sounds like and for good reason too. Although the underlying technology is quite different, in both cars the engine speed is infinitely variable in response to the load ie. acceleration and incline.

I don't think it's anything like dropping a cog in a manual box, in that case the revs do rise but then they remain fixed in relation to the road speed until the next gear change.

We have plenty of little hilly country roads round here and I find exactly as the OP describes, once the battery is depleted. Using Save is only really helpful if the journey is beyond EV range and only hilly at the end. If the whole journey is hilly then using Save early on will only bring forward the engine revving.

On a related note - has anyone else noticed that when ICE comes on for heating only it seems to behave as if using Save, even with a full battery? On cold mornings I'm finding that the revs will rise and fall with engine load, which seems a bit daft with battery charge at 100%. Its not as if it can use the surplus power to charge the battery? If it needs to rev higher to generate heat why not just run it at a steady 2000 rpm (eg.)? I can only assume that it's effectively running in Save mode, but I can't really understand what design parameters Mitsubishi is trying to address here.

 

[tlongdon]

I guess the issue is accelerating up a moderately steep hill with a flat battery. That will race the engine as it tries to get the output of the generator high enough to drive the motors with little assistance from the battery.

Yes, the battery was flat. I'm away from home in the middle of nowhere and no means to charge over Christmas <sad face>

With such a low EV range, keeping some charge for hills means pretty much staying on Save all the time. Given that this defeats the object of the car, the resulting high-pitched whine - presuming that it's seriously labouring the engine - needs to be addressed.

If that means not trying to generate power to a motor, and instead using the engine solely to drive the car, then this needs to be an option. Otherwise the engine isn't going to last very long either! I can handle another button. I mean, I know what at least 60% of the existing ones do. :lol:

 

[maby]

I guess the issue is accelerating up a moderately steep hill with a flat battery. That will race the engine as it tries to get the output of the generator high enough to drive the motors with little assistance from the battery.

Yes, the battery was flat. I'm away from home in the middle of nowhere and no means to charge over Christmas <sad face>

With such a low EV range, keeping some charge for hills means pretty much staying on Save all the time. Given that this defeats the object of the car, the resulting high-pitched whine - presuming that it's seriously labouring the engine - needs to be addressed.

If that means not trying to generate power to a motor, and instead using the engine solely to drive the car, then this needs to be an option. Otherwise the engine isn't going to last very long either! I can handle another button. I mean, I know what at least 60% of the existing ones do. :lol:

These really are circumstances where you have to accept that it ceases to be a hybrid and becomes a petrol car with electric transmission. Press "Charge" and keep the battery topped up.

 

[PolishPilot]

Anyone who was driving a CVT car before
the PHEV would find not much difference.
(Daf 66 one of the oldest examples.)
Nowadays, even the other Outlander models use CVT.

Actually a traditional AT with hydrodynamic torque converter
sound similar to PHEV at low speeds and high load.
(Used to drive two of them, can tell.)

So, it's just another CVT, but this time not hydraulic or mechanic,
but electric, as mentioned above.

 

[Peter]

This is one of things that I have found most annoying about the car. Most of my journeys are from my home on the edge of Dartmoor into Plymouth a round trip of about 25 miles.
The journey in is mostly downhill for the first third of it and I can still have the suggested EV range the same as when I started, normally 24-25 miles when I have completed it,the last part of this section is quite a steep hill and by this time I am able to put some charge back in the batteries from the paddles.
The problem arises on the way home, the EV range is normally shown at about 6-8 miles, I have to approach this first hill from a standing start having joined it from stopping at a Tee junction, I am getting a bit used to it now but the screaming of the engine at extremely high revs I found to be very disconcerting, a gradual increase in engine speed as with a normal ICE would certainly be far more acceptable. Once I have climbed this hill there is normally enough energy in the batteries to complete the journey as it is then a gradual incline which the batteries can deal with
Has as been already said to use the save button would some what defeat the object of the EV car to save the battery for this small section of my journey and burning petrol for the majority.
I like the idea of another switch to enable the ICE to drive the wheels direct rather than trying to pump energy into the batteries.
Something for the Mitsubishi to consider for the future!!!!

 

[maby]

...

I like the idea of another switch to enable the ICE to drive the wheels direct rather than trying to pump energy into the batteries.
Something for the Mitsubishi to consider for the future!!!!

The ICE will automatically couple directly to the wheels at speeds above around 45mph. It cannot couple to the wheels at speeds below this since the car does not have a gearbox. No amount of reprogramming is going to change that. The issue is accelerating to around 50mph with a flat battery - the solution is to avoid the battery going flat.

 

[tlongdon]

The ICE will automatically couple directly to the wheels at speeds above around 45mph. It cannot couple to the wheels at speeds below this since the car does not have a gearbox. No amount of reprogramming is going to change that. The issue is accelerating to around 50mph with a flat battery - the solution is to avoid the battery going flat.

... or put up with the screaming noise, I hope. Some hills around here, if you had to take them at 20-25mph, you could be considered as driving dangerously slow

 

[maddogsetc]

...

I like the idea of another switch to enable the ICE to drive the wheels direct rather than trying to pump energy into the batteries.
Something for the Mitsubishi to consider for the future!!!!

The ICE will automatically couple directly to the wheels at speeds above around 45mph. It cannot couple to the wheels at speeds below this since the car does not have a gearbox. No amount of reprogramming is going to change that. The issue is accelerating to around 50mph with a flat battery - the solution is to avoid the battery going flat.

I agree that this is an unavoidable feature of the car. Unfortunately I think it's the compromise that has to be made to enable the substantial weight saving that comes with losing the gearbox.

It will be interesting to see how the Audi e-Tron compares when it eventually arrives as I understand that this car will retain a conventional gearbox allowing ICE to drive without any input from the electric motor at all. However, the fact that Audi are only claiming 30 miles EV range for a smaller car without four wheel drive explains why Mitsubishi did not go down this route.

On the up side, I wouldn't worry too much about the engine suffering damage - I'm sure that it will be designed to operate well within 'safe' limits - it just sounds bad because we're not used to hearing such high engine revs at low road speeds.

 

[maddogsetc]

The ICE will automatically couple directly to the wheels at speeds above around 45mph. It cannot couple to the wheels at speeds below this since the car does not have a gearbox. No amount of reprogramming is going to change that. The issue is accelerating to around 50mph with a flat battery - the solution is to avoid the battery going flat.

... or put up with the screaming noise, I hope. Some hills around here, if you had to take them at 20-25mph, you could be considered as driving dangerously slow

Actually the solution in your case might be to speed up rather than slow down. I accept that might mean more screaming at first, but if the road is suitable for you to drive at 45-55mph then you could be running in parallel mode (ie. ICE driving the wheels directly, albeit probably supplemented by the electric motors), which will be much quieter.