Secular and cycle deterioration as seen in the MUT-III.

[Trex]

BTW: Seenthis? http://mmc-autoelectric.org.ua/manuals/eur/outlander/2014/54/html/M154945550009000ENG.HTM

No I had not. Good find. Only from the MUT-III from my battery report have I seen them.

Is there one for the OBC or others?

 

[AndyH]

In the little bit of searching I did religion came up regularly. :lol:

yeah, but change the search... looots of interesting but pretty new research.
for instance:
Aging mechanisms of Li-ion batteries : seen from an experimental and simulation point of view
which has a look at all the chemistries and the state the art; lots of tidbits (go for the summary at the end and work back)

The summary is 6 pages long.

Some good light reading there and even has some "pretty pictures". :lol:

Thanks. Will work my way through it.

This one has even more pretty pictures - and some of them move.

Around 30 minutes in there are videos of physical damage that happens during charging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjixld5W3E

 

[Trex]

The summary is 6 pages long.

Some good light reading there and even has some "pretty pictures". :lol:

Thanks. Will work my way through it.

This one has even more pretty pictures - and some of them move.

Around 30 minutes in there are videos of physical damage that happens during charging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjixld5W3E

Forgot to say thanks for this Andy.

Have watched this a couple of times and very interesting.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Now previously in this thread I wrote:

Secular and cycle deterioration. Strange. :?

Wonder how they work them out? Will keep looking.

And later on we thought Secular was age or calendar based deterioration.

Also Cycle deterioration was probably based on the number of cycles charged and discharged.

But I now have this information:

"There are two main types of degradation – Cyclic Degradation (degradation due to discharge/charge) and Calendar Degradation (degradation due to time). Factors that
accelerate cyclic degradation are high discharge/charge rates, high energy demands at high/low battery state of charge, and complete battery discharge situations. Factors that
accelerate calendar degradation are amount of time in service, high ambient temperatures in storage (when the vehicle is not in use) and high battery state of charge when in
storage."

IMO this helps us solve this one.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

I have a new MUTT-III report showing:

No 398 Battery capacity secular deterioration was 14.55% on my PHEV now showing 16.06%

No 399 Battery capacity cycle deterioration was 10.76% on my PHEV now showing 11.89%

No 397 Charge and Discharge intergrated current was 65012 Ah from OBD now 75332 Ah from MUTT-III

 

[Trex]

Now anko asked me in this thread:

It has been discussed (if I am nor mistaken) how the Current Ah is calculated based on actual usage parameters and done theoretical model. Could these be 2 of the parameters?

Not sure still looking into it.

Notice that last sentence from anko "Could these be 2 of the parameters?" ie the Secular (calendar or age) and cycle deterioration.

Well I think they are used to "estimate" the current capacity of the drive battery (or SOH) by the BMU. I will bring in a image I found and put in another thread that I started:



Please note the Calculating total amount of battery (including capacity adjustment) using History of battery usage and History of discharge and charge
on the bottom left of the BMU.

History of battery usage I think is Secular (calendar or age) deterioration.

History of discharge and charge I think is cycle (or Cyclic) deterioration.

They are both stored on the PHEV as we use it and are fed into the algorithm that works out the "estimated" current capacity of the drive battery I think.

Regards Trex.

 

[HHL]

I have a new MUTT-III report showing:

No 398 Battery capacity secular deterioration was 14.55% on my PHEV now showing 16.06%

No 399 Battery capacity cycle deterioration was 10.76% on my PHEV now showing 11.89%

No 397 Charge and Discharge intergrated current was 65012 Ah from OBD now 75332 Ah from MUTT-III

but what does it all mean??? what's the meaning of (battery) life?

 

[Trex]

..........what's the meaning of life?

C'mon HHL a lot of us know IMHO the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42.

 

[richr]

It means that as with all batteries, the usable capacity and lifetime are dependent on chemical reactions that have hundreds of variables, some of which aren't fully understood. Any estimate of battery capacity is just that - an estimate.

Measuring how much current can be drawn and what it does to the voltage as it's discharged gives one indication of capacity, as does seeing what the voltage does as it's charged at a constant current. But depending on how the charge is used, the cells may respond differently, so if the car's driven in a different manner (eg being in a hilly area for a few days) then the previous estimation won't necessarily be correct.

The BMU does its best to keep the cells in good condition and well balanced, but it doesn't always have the ideal conditions for doing so. This is true of any Lithium battery. Give two identical mobile phones to two people, one playing Candy Crush 12 hours a day and Snapchatting every 5 minutes and the other just making the occasional phone call once a month and after a year the reported battery capacity of each won't be the same. Yet the batteries started out near identical.

I'm not going to obsess about the battery reporting that it's got slightly less capacity than it had when new. Petrol engines also don't provide as much power as they once did as they wear over the years too. Only if it degrades to the point of affecting useful performance will I be concerned.

 

[anko]

Only if it degrades to the point of affecting useful performance will I be concerned.

What do you think triggers these kind of topics? The loss of just a few percent of capacity,?

 

[greendwarf]

..........what's the meaning of life?

C'mon HHL a lot of us know IMHO the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42.

And here I am with a pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side. :lol:

 

[Trex]

I have a new MUTT-III report showing:

No 398 Battery capacity secular deterioration was 14.55% on my PHEV now showing 16.06%

No 399 Battery capacity cycle deterioration was 10.76% on my PHEV now showing 11.89%

No 397 Charge and Discharge intergrated current was 65012 Ah from OBD now 75332 Ah from MUTT-III

but what does it all mean??? what's the meaning of (battery) life?

Sorry HHL I am not sure what you mean by this. Could you be a little more specific.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

It means that as with all batteries, the usable capacity and lifetime are dependent on chemical reactions that have hundreds of variables, some of which aren't fully understood. Any estimate of battery capacity is just that - an estimate.

Measuring how much current can be drawn and what it does to the voltage as it's discharged gives one indication of capacity, as does seeing what the voltage does as it's charged at a constant current. But depending on how the charge is used, the cells may respond differently, so if the car's driven in a different manner (eg being in a hilly area for a few days) then the previous estimation won't necessarily be correct.

The BMU does its best to keep the cells in good condition and well balanced, but it doesn't always have the ideal conditions for doing so. This is true of any Lithium battery. Give two identical mobile phones to two people, one playing Candy Crush 12 hours a day and Snapchatting every 5 minutes and the other just making the occasional phone call once a month and after a year the reported battery capacity of each won't be the same. Yet the batteries started out near identical.

I'm not going to obsess about the battery reporting that it's got slightly less capacity than it had when new. Petrol engines also don't provide as much power as they once did as they wear over the years too. Only if it degrades to the point of affecting useful performance will I be concerned.

Hi richr,

I started this topic just because I could not work out secular and cycle deterioration as shown on the reports at the time. I have had an "affliction" all my life of needing to know how things work etc. Like I have said before on this forum I am like a wide eyed kid wanting to learn things from as far back as I can remember. Probably why I got into engineering in the first place as a way of hopefully putting that "affliction" to good use instead of doing the other great passion of my life of flying ie I sometimes wish I was a full time pilot like some of my friends. I certainly think it would have been easier sometimes to just be a "bus driving" airline pilot like them. :lol:

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Only if it degrades to the point of affecting useful performance will I be concerned.

What do you think triggers these kind of topics? The loss of just a few percent of capacity,?

Nope, as well you know I think its our curiosity.

 

[Trex]

..........what's the meaning of life?

C'mon HHL a lot of us know IMHO the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42.

And here I am with a pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side. :lol:

:lol: :lol: Well Mr greendwarf Sir as far as I know you have one of the best sense of humour here, after me of course. :lol: