ThudnBlundr
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sat May 08, 2021 4:51 am

All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.
2015 GX4hs since 03/18
2015 Renault Zoe R240 owner since 11/17

You may have speed, but I have momentum...Image

Trex
Posts: 879
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sat May 08, 2021 4:19 pm

ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:51 am
All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.
Image
Mitsubishi has given us reason to believe they have scientific proof that we need to know that parallel mode is where we should try to run our petrol engine by just looking at this graph and reading what they say under it. :roll: :lol: :lol: Geez they would not have bothered to put a lock up clutch with it's added complexity and weight disadvantages if they didn't surely ?

greendwarf
Posts: 2297
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sun May 09, 2021 4:26 am

G'day Trex - nice to have some clarity on this from "the old days". ;)

You'd think after 7 years of discussion that this subject might have died a death but too many newbies. :roll:

Glad to see "down under" on the new UK travel green list, even you won't let us in yet! :lol:

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sun May 09, 2021 6:01 am

Thanks for that (and the condescending tone) but it doesn't really answer the question I asked. It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low. So indeed Mitsubishi (and Chevy with the Volt - are there others?) wouldn't have put a direct drive into the "gearbox" to make it more efficient. However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

Sorry if I'm still a stupid newbie after 3½ years of ownership and studying the intricacies of the PHEV, but no one has yet been able to answer my question. I'm perfectly happy to accept that the statement may well be right, but no one has yet shown evidence for this PHEV. Maybe I'm missing something obvious (it has been known) but if it's such a stupid question and a simple answer, maybe people like greendwarf would like to answer it themselves instead of belittling people they know very little about.
2015 GX4hs since 03/18
2015 Renault Zoe R240 owner since 11/17

You may have speed, but I have momentum...Image

Trex
Posts: 879
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sun May 09, 2021 4:09 pm

greendwarf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:26 am
G'day Trex - nice to have some clarity on this from "the old days". ;)

You'd think after 7 years of discussion that this subject might have died a death but too many newbies. :roll:

Glad to see "down under" on the new UK travel green list, even you won't let us in yet! :lol:
G'day Mr greendwarf Sir ;) ,

I am sure we will let you Poms back in someday. :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

Trex
Posts: 879
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Near Port Macquarie Australia

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Sun May 09, 2021 5:02 pm

ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:01 am
Thanks for that (and the condescending tone) but it doesn't really answer the question I asked. It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low. So indeed Mitsubishi (and Chevy with the Volt - are there others?) wouldn't have put a direct drive into the "gearbox" to make it more efficient. However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

Sorry if I'm still a stupid newbie after 3½ years of ownership and studying the intricacies of the PHEV, but no one has yet been able to answer my question. I'm perfectly happy to accept that the statement may well be right, but no one has yet shown evidence for this PHEV. Maybe I'm missing something obvious (it has been known) but if it's such a stupid question and a simple answer, maybe people like greendwarf would like to answer it themselves instead of belittling people they know very little about.
Ok all the graph and words underneath I think tells us is "parallel" mode is where we should try to run the petrol engine.

Physics of our time from my research says ICE engines are lucky to be approx 40% efficient when they are in a specific area of operation where that throttle valve is fully open to reduce pumping losses or "induction" losses. Electric motors in our phevs are approx double that. Running a ICE at idle is very inefficient, that is why I think so many cars these days including my son's Mazda 3 include a mode to shut down the petrol engine when stopped at the traffic lights.

Now in answer to this "PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question." I would say the Phev is most efficient when it travels in EV mode at a "constant" slow speed to get the most range out of our drive battery. But if you have to run that petrol motor in the Phev on trips that include higher speeds where parallel mode can happen all the data I have seen including Mitsubishi's says parallel mode is more efficient to be running that ICE. By following that advice of avoiding series mode to run the petrol motor my own fuel consumption figures in both my Phevs have reduced from approx 8lts/100ks to approx 7lts/100ks on trips away. I will leave it up to the individual to decide whether pressing buttons for that gain is worth it.

Hope that helps. :)

greendwarf
Posts: 2297
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Mon May 10, 2021 1:32 am

No offence intended ThudnBlundr - as typed it was directed at Trex, who like me has been around since the early days when the car was very much an unknown for everyone. Buried in the archives are lots of graphs and other stats, which might help answer your question, like the one he dug out but, I accept they can be difficult to find - especially if you don't know quite what you are looking for.

I was merely thanking him for the info and expressing the view that it is surprising that even after 7 years the issue still needs proving to relatively new owners. Unfortunately, many of the contributors to the original discussions are no longer active in the forum.

kpetrov
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:59 am

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Mon May 10, 2021 6:31 am

ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:01 am
It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low.
However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.
The graph doesn't say that quote "if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low."
Exactly the opposite. It says over 65km/h it will run in parallel mode. Under 65km/h will run in series mode. Not because series is more efficient but cause parallel is unavailable at that point.
Otherwise like Trex have said EV power is most efficient in our vehicles and slower and steadier better it is. The question was when is more efficient to run the ICE though.
2018 Outlander PHEV (Canadian)

oscarmax
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:47 am

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Mon May 10, 2021 9:37 am

Trex wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:19 pm
ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:51 am
All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.
Image
Mitsubishi has given us reason to believe they have scientific proof that we need to know that parallel mode is where we should try to run our petrol engine by just looking at this graph and reading what they say under it. :roll: :lol: :lol: Geez they would not have bothered to put a lock up clutch with it's added complexity and weight disadvantages if they didn't surely ?
Is there any data available for the later 2.4 models, when towing last year we got stuck behind a woman driving at 30 mph, unfortunately due to erratic driving we could no overtake for many miles, we had to stay in charge mode as we had little SOC in reserve, we did noticed our average fuel consumption mileage was slightly increasing, however, we were not expecting is our SOC range starting to increase ?
Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4 PHEV Design 2020 Towing a Swift Conqueror 480 2016 1500kg

Please be patient I suffered a brain injury several years ago and get confused at times

ThudnBlundr
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:18 am
Location: Yorkshire end of M1, UK

Re: Battery Charge/Save Buttons

Tue May 11, 2021 3:07 am

kpetrov wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:31 am
ThudnBlundr wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:01 am
It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low.
However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.
The graph doesn't say that quote "if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low."
Exactly the opposite. It says over 65km/h it will run in parallel mode. Under 65km/h will run in series mode. Not because series is more efficient but cause parallel is unavailable at that point.
Otherwise like Trex have said EV power is most efficient in our vehicles and slower and steadier better it is. The question was when is more efficient to run the ICE though.
I did indeed get my Parallel / Series mixed up. D'oh! But I think most people realised that it was a mistake rather than a fundamental misunderstanding of the PHEV and thus didn't feel the need to lecture me
2015 GX4hs since 03/18
2015 Renault Zoe R240 owner since 11/17

You may have speed, but I have momentum...Image

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