ChrisMiller
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:37 am
Location: Bucks

Re: Impossible Advertising

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:12 am

Sunder wrote:100/53.3 =1.87L per 100km: I'm beating the advertiser's spec.
But you're not showing 30% EV usage ...
GX4h (2016) since 23/12/2015

maby
Posts: 3033
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am

Re: Impossible Advertising

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:36 am

The issue for hybrids is going to be that, while it may be the case that the majority of people buying them may well fall into the category that do benefit from them, will the testing authorities apply a different test schedule to them compared with pure petrol cars? Mitsubishi do not publish CO2 emissions figures for the PHEV running as a petrol car, but we can make some educated guesses based on other cars. We know that once you run the battery flat a realistic fuel consumption is in the region of 40mpg. Look at other petrol cars returning 40mpg, and we can estimate that the PHEV will be emitting something in excess of 130g CO2/km. The current test schedule covers a sufficiently short distance that the test results come out at this figure of around 150mpg and 44g/km. If the test was extended to 100km and done on a track under realistic conditions rather than a rolling road, 60% or more of the distance would be running on petrol giving an overall figure in the region of 80g/km and 70mpg. These are still good for the size and style of car, but would not support the current favourable tax treatment - it would rate very similar to mid size petrol cars.

anko
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area

Re: Impossible Advertising

Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:47 am

Some people use the car outside of its comfort zone. Is that a reason to change the test in such way that it is tested outside its comfort zone? Many of these people would have walked away from the car if it hadn't been for the tax benefits. Maybe the problem is not the car, but the fact that the tax plans only looks at ownership of the car and not at how the car is used.

Sunder
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:05 am

Re: Impossible Advertising

Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:27 pm

ChrisMiller wrote:
Sunder wrote:100/53.3 =1.87L per 100km: I'm beating the advertiser's spec.
But you're not showing 30% EV usage ...
You got me there.

Then again, almost every car ad I see says something like "Specifications may vary" and "Not all features shown available in Australia".

If that one sole mock up of the range and EV mix is what people relied upon to buy the car, I do feel sorry for them. They must feel ripped off in life all the time.

maby
Posts: 3033
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:14 am

anko wrote:Some people use the car outside of its comfort zone. Is that a reason to change the test in such way that it is tested outside its comfort zone? Many of these people would have walked away from the car if it hadn't been for the tax benefits. Maybe the problem is not the car, but the fact that the tax plans only looks at ownership of the car and not at how the car is used.
You misunderstand me - my point is that following the VW revelations there is pressure to make the official tests more realistic by extending the duration and simulating real-world usage rather than the current very artificial test cycle. Also, currently, the same test cycle is applied to all cars - both conventional petrol/diesel and hybrid - this favours hybrid cars because they can do most of the test on battery and do not demonstrate their performance on petrol. If the authorities design a more extensive test cycle and continue to apply the same tests to all cars, then hybrids will suffer worse than petrol cars in the results - at least assuming that the manufacturers of the petrol cars have not been playing VW tricks to cheat the test.

anko
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:16 am

According to the Dutch Automobile Club (ANWB) the average length of a car trip is about 19 km and cars are parked for about 23 hours per day. Ideal for a car like ours. The plug in hybrid fuel consumption is calculated over an imaginary trip of 75 km. This calculation results in 44 gr CO2 / km, where on a trip of 19 km it would be easy to achieve 0. So, I don't see how such a test favours plug-ins.

maby
Posts: 3033
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:10 am

anko wrote:According to the Dutch Automobile Club (ANWB) the average length of a car trip is about 19 km and cars are parked for about 23 hours per day. Ideal for a car like ours. The plug in hybrid fuel consumption is calculated over an imaginary trip of 75 km. This calculation results in 44 gr CO2 / km, where on a trip of 19 km it would be easy to achieve 0. So, I don't see how such a test favours plug-ins.
75 km is on the "knee" of the curve - certainly 19km would be even more favourable, but if the test was doubled to 150km, the figures would be much worse as the balance shifts from EV to petrol. For conventional vehicles, the length of the test is relatively immaterial - once it's warmed up, it will produce the same figures over 500km as it does over 50km. The VW cheating was discovered as a result of independent testing done over significant distances on public roads - if the new "official" tests build upon that and do not make a distinction between hybrids and conventional cars, they could be much more hostile to hybrids.

anko
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:42 am

Why double the length of the "test" if it is already about 3 times longer than the average car trip? I don't understand why you insist on creating a test that makes the car look bad.

maby
Posts: 3033
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:46 am

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:45 am

anko wrote:Why double the length of the "test" if it is already about 3 times longer than the average car trip? I don't understand why you insist on creating a test that makes the car look bad.
I'm not insisting on creating anything - just remarking on what some believe is likely to come out of the VW cockup.

ChrisMiller
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:37 am
Location: Bucks

Re: Impossible Advertising

Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:19 am

anko wrote:The plug in hybrid fuel consumption is calculated over an imaginary trip of 75 km.
According to Wikipedia (so by no means infallible), the European fuel economy test is only 11 km long. The only reason I can see why the PHEV wouldn't give a 'zero' figure is that it includes a brief spell at 120 kph.
GX4h (2016) since 23/12/2015

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