Definitely does recharge battery in Save mode!

[maby]

But it is not very aggressive with it...

I took my wife to the Toyota dealer this morning to collect the Landie that was in for a service. They were slow serving her, so I was sitting outside in the Outlander waiting. I had hit Save as soon as we left the house with a full charge and arrived at the garage with 15 bars showing on the battery meter. I was listening to the radio, so I left the car powered up while I waited. The heater was off and I had one window slightly open. After about 15 minutes, the engine started and I looked up to see that the battery had dropped to 14 bars. I let it run and it took a few minutes to get it back up to 15 bars at which point it stopped.

 

[anko]

So, you hit save at 16 bars. And the engine stopped at 15 bars. Don't see what that is supposed to prove.

Of course Save will recharge the battery as the SOC will oscillate around a specific percentage. The thing is this: if, for example because you are climbing a hill resulting in the SOC dropping further than it normally would, SAVE mode will not try to get you back to that original set percentage, but it will start oscillating around a lower percentage.

 

[Abitinga]

What's SOC?

 

[NAPpy]

The save mode really just moves the State of Charge (SOC) point up from zero (30%?) to wherever you hit the button. The car does it's normal thing as though you have a depleted battery.

 

[maby]

The save mode really just moves the State of Charge (SOC) point up from zero (30%?) to wherever you hit the button. The car does it's normal thing as though you have a depleted battery.

That has always been my belief, but some including anko have claimed that it does not replenish lost charge in Save mode. It is certainly the case that, if you spend several days driving in Save without plugging the car up, the SOC gradually drops off. My belief has been that this is simply because the recharging in Save mode is not very aggressive and if you switch the car off before it has topped the SOC back up, the reduced level becomes the new target for Save when you start the car again. My experience today seems to support that.

 

[Grigou]

The save mode really just moves the State of Charge (SOC) point up from zero (30%?) to wherever you hit the button. The car does it's normal thing as though you have a depleted battery.

That has always been my belief, but some including anko have claimed that it does not replenish lost charge in Save mode. It is certainly the case that, if you spend several days driving in Save without plugging the car up, the SOC gradually drops off. My belief has been that this is simply because the recharging in Save mode is not very aggressive and if you switch the car off before it has topped the SOC back up, the reduced level becomes the new target for Save when you start the car again. My experience today seems to support that.

Same experience here.

And if you loose a significant amount of SOC because you are driving uphill (in Save mode of course), you will never retrieve it unless driving downhill later (or plugin the car, of course).

 

[gwatpe]

I tend to drive the car and use SAVE mode on a trip longer than 100km, to preserve the battery for any slower or steep uphill sections. I use SAVE mode to force the use of the ICE when the speed is over 80kph. Where I live, the PHEV will completely drain the battery during typical driving. Series hybrid and parallel hybrid modes share the duty when the battery is drained like normal.

I generally only recharge the battery when under 50% indicated. During travel over multiple trips, I have found that the SAVE mode sets a battery level the PHEV tries to maintain, but it does oscillate up and down about this level. If the car is powered OFF and the level had been slightly higher, then if the save was pressed immediately when started again, the new setting would be slightly higher. And vice versa if the level was slightly lower when stopped.

Having a sticky save point wold allow the driver to better control the battery. So many times I have started driving without pressing the SAVE button and ended up depleting the battery. I now just use the CHARGE button to bring the level up to about 25% and go back to SAVE mode. Would be much better if the car just remembered, or the buttons were two position. Must see what happens if a button is continuously pressed. Has anyone tried this yet?? Only the SAVE button needs to be this way. Could even be a long press like the CC override from ASC. Could not possibly hurt the car systems. Maybe needs an aftermarket add on that on powerup and after a slight delay, the SAVE button is automatically electronically pressed. The driver would then have complete control over when and if the battery was depleted fully during a drive.

 

[Trex]

The save mode really just moves the State of Charge (SOC) point up from zero (30%?) to wherever you hit the button. The car does it's normal thing as though you have a depleted battery.

That has always been my belief, but some including anko have claimed that it does not replenish lost charge in Save mode. It is certainly the case that, if you spend several days driving in Save without plugging the car up, the SOC gradually drops off. My belief has been that this is simply because the recharging in Save mode is not very aggressive and if you switch the car off before it has topped the SOC back up, the reduced level becomes the new target for Save when you start the car again. My experience today seems to support that.

Hi Maby,

I will tell you a story that happened about 11 months ago.

I went to see our farm up on the Great Dividing Range west of where I live in NSW. This is a 5000ft climb (I am a pilot so I still use feet for altitude) from 25 ft on the coast where I live. I pressed the Save button at 50% SOC believing that that would be a big enough reserve for climbing the range ie I had 50% (8 bars) at bottom of climb. This climb is just the last 25 min of a 2 hour drive ie fairly steep.

At the top of the climb I had just 2 bars on the graphic( thought I was going to run it right down there for a while but just made it) and after driving for over 1.5 hours around farm (still in Save mode) it stayed on 2 bars SOC. I did not turn off the Phev ie I did not reset the set point of Save mode.

So my conclusion was that once the SOC drops below the set point (of the Save button) by a certain % the software does not try to get it all back if using just the Save button. I did not touch the Charge button as I still had a 5000ft descent ahead of me.

Out of interest I got back to 6 bars SOC on the descent from regen (a lot of B5) at the bottom of the range and I think I could have got more if the regen could give more than the about 30Kw back to the Hv battery.

Regards Trex.

 

[Grigou]

Same story when I go skiing in Savoy

 

[anko]

And if you loose a significant amount of SOC because you are driving uphill (in Save mode of course), you will never retrieve it unless driving downhill later (or plugin the car, of course).

Well put.

I think we all agree that Save mode does recharge the battery. IMHO the question is or should be: will Save mode (try to) maintain the set SOC level under all circumstances? I believe it will under normal circumstances. But, like Grigou, I believe that under heavy circumstances, when SOC drops lower than it normally would, SAVE will not recharge the battery back to the earlier set level. It will not even try to. SOC will start to oscillate around the lower level to which it was forced down. Where Charge mode would recharge back to that set level and beyond (assuming circumstances allow it).

 

[maby]

I tend to drive the car and use SAVE mode on a trip longer than 100km, to preserve the battery for any slower or steep uphill sections. I use SAVE mode to force the use of the ICE when the speed is over 80kph. Where I live, the PHEV will completely drain the battery during typical driving. Series hybrid and parallel hybrid modes share the duty when the battery is drained like normal.

I generally only recharge the battery when under 50% indicated. During travel over multiple trips, I have found that the SAVE mode sets a battery level the PHEV tries to maintain, but it does oscillate up and down about this level. If the car is powered OFF and the level had been slightly higher, then if the save was pressed immediately when started again, the new setting would be slightly higher. And vice versa if the level was slightly lower when stopped.

Having a sticky save point wold allow the driver to better control the battery. So many times I have started driving without pressing the SAVE button and ended up depleting the battery. I now just use the CHARGE button to bring the level up to about 25% and go back to SAVE mode. Would be much better if the car just remembered, or the buttons were two position. Must see what happens if a button is continuously pressed. Has anyone tried this yet?? Only the SAVE button needs to be this way. Could even be a long press like the CC override from ASC. Could not possibly hurt the car systems. Maybe needs an aftermarket add on that on powerup and after a slight delay, the SAVE button is automatically electronically pressed. The driver would then have complete control over when and if the battery was depleted fully during a drive.

I've argued for "sticky save" or something of that nature too - but I got slapped down for it! Sticky save is perhaps a bit of an oversimplification - it should be a "long distance" mode that does whatever is appropriate to make the vehicle responsive while protecting the battery. I would see it as more of a "Prius mode" - set the target SOC around 50%, permitting a reasonable fluctuation on that and every few days cycle the battery over a wider range to improve life expectancy - assuming that applies to LiOn batteries. It should stay engaged until you actively disengage it - possibly flashing up a warning on the instrument panel when you start the car to remind you that it is on.

 

[gwatpe]

The workshop manual has the SAVE button and CHARGE buttons directly connected to the ECU and just connect either pin to chassis when pressed. I am looking into a very simple mod to give either SAVE mode or CHARGE mode as set upon power ON.

I find the PHEV more useful when I control when the battery is depleted. It is very annoying on extended travels to always remember to press the SAVE or CHARGE button after filling the petrol tank on a longer journey. Having the car automatically give SAVE mode when powered ON transfers the use of the battery directly into the drivers control. By all means turn it OFF to give more EV, but at least having it always at least start in save mode will prevent the **it the battery is empty frustration many get when towing or travelling in terrain with long steep grades.

Has to be a no vehicle wiring mod solution. Have already tested the hold button down test on power ON and can confirm the concept is sound.

 

[greendwarf]

Having the car automatically give SAVE mode when powered ON transfers the use of the battery directly into the drivers control. By all means turn it OFF to give more EV, but at least having it always at least start in save mode will prevent the **it the battery is empty frustration many get when towing or travelling in terrain with long steep grades.

.

This sounds like the old "leave the toilet seat up or down" argument in mixed sex households :lol: This car is primarily designed for the urban Japanese market so defaults (as mentioned ad nauseam in this forum) to EV mode as a preference, so your idea would annoy just as many (if not more) than those who have your requirements.

 

[Bilbo59]

Having the car automatically give SAVE mode when powered ON transfers the use of the battery directly into the drivers control. By all means turn it OFF to give more EV, but at least having it always at least start in save mode will prevent the **it the battery is empty frustration many get when towing or travelling in terrain with long steep grades.

.

This sounds like the old "leave the toilet seat up or down" argument in mixed sex households :lol: This car is primarily designed for the urban Japanese market so defaults (as mentioned ad nauseam in this forum) to EV mode as a preference, so your idea would annoy just as many (if not more) than those who have your requirements.

Where did you find the information regarding what the car was primarily designed for?

 

[gwatpe]

The PHEV would be considered a very expensive toy, if the features of avoiding some tax and restricting use to only EV was the reason for buying one.

Starting a drive always in SAVE mode will be a comparison test and like all good things time will prove it. Even if it benefits only me it is still a benefit that could have EASILY been programmed into the ECU for me to choose to use or not.

My solution may be better as the car seems to forget the useful data and settings when powered down as a default.

 

[jaapv]

Having the car automatically give SAVE mode when powered ON transfers the use of the battery directly into the drivers control. By all means turn it OFF to give more EV, but at least having it always at least start in save mode will prevent the **it the battery is empty frustration many get when towing or travelling in terrain with long steep grades.

.

This sounds like the old "leave the toilet seat up or down" argument in mixed sex households :lol: This car is primarily designed for the urban Japanese market so defaults (as mentioned ad nauseam in this forum) to EV mode as a preference, so your idea would annoy just as many (if not more) than those who have your requirements.

Where did you find the information regarding what the car was primarily designed for?

What should EV cars of all types be designed for then, if it were not optimum use of the EV system with variations on the concept per model ?
If you want a long-range motorway cruiser a smallish but powerful turbodiesel is far more efficient.
The problem with this car is that tax benefits have overridden a choice on technical etc. considerations in many cases.

 

[Titan]

Trouble is, people tend to think of this vehicle as EV, when really it's PHEV. Hybrids are never pure one thing or the other, they've been "cross bred" for a purpose.

 

[maby]

...

Where did you find the information regarding what the car was primarily designed for?

What should EV cars of all types be designed for then, if it were not optimum use of the EV system with variations on the concept per model ?
If you want a long-range motorway cruiser a smallish but powerful turbodiesel is far more efficient.
The problem with this car is that tax benefits have overridden a choice on technical etc. considerations in many cases.[/quote]

Without the tax benefits, I doubt the car would remain in production. There are, undoubtedly, people that would buy it anyway - I don't think our Polish friends here see any tax benefits. But to keep the production line running, they need sales of at least many tens of thousands per annum and I doubt there are enough takers worldwide on fuel economy alone to keep it going.

 

[Kim]

No benefits here either.
Plus it's USD 10.000 more expensive than its diesel equivalent..

Edit: I save around USD 175 / y on roadtax....

 

[maby]

No benefits here either.
Plus it's USD 10.000 more expensive than its diesel equivalent..

Edit: I save around USD 175 / y on roadtax....

Not easy to justify on that basis.