Flappy Paddle Cynic

[Kim]

The good thing this thread highlights is the car's ability to be flexible. You have the paddles, the gear changer, and the pedals all able to control regen and therefore the driver can set things up to suit their driving preference.

+1

Speaking for myself: I absolutely like the paddles very much! <3
And I'm used to the one pedal feeling from the last three years of driving my Fluence Z.E.
And having paddles to alternate between regenerating strengths was one thing I dreamed of since at least twoandahalf years; long before the Outlander PHEV was even born.

 

[dkdogg]

Some really interesting feedback and comments on this.
Just used another tank of fuel with heater mainly on at 18 degrees, and managed to get 70 mpg. This surprised me. Maybe higher temps would suck the juice more?
I think that the usefulness of the regen braking depends on how flat / hilly / mountainous your area is, hence why it's not much use for me!
It would be interesting to know the difference between the energy saved by coasting compared with the energy gained in battery power by using regen braking, then having to speed back up again. I suppose that if you use regen braking skilfully, compared with adjusting your driving to use maximum coasting, there won't be much in it..

 

[RazMan]

Without wishing to teach anyone how to suck eggs here .... One of the basic laws of physics explains why you can't get free energy - Imagine you live in the foothills of a large mountain and go to work on the top of the same mountain. On your way home from work you can charge the battery on the way down with the paddles set to B5, but returning to work the next day will more than deplete the battery (and a lot of petrol too) regardless of how the paddles are set.

Personally I like to drive on B2 which gives a more 'conventional' deceleration when lifting the right foot. If I have a long descent then I might increase to B4-5 simply to maintain road speed without using the brakes. Coasting on B0 feels like a conventional car running with the clutch in, and quite strange to me. Whichever method you use I doubt that any fuel will be saved in the long run - perpetual motion hasn't been invented yet

 

[anko]

Whichever method you use I doubt that any fuel will be saved in the long run - perpetual motion hasn't been invented yet

Two cars on the top of a hill. A PHEV with depleted batteries and a normal car. Both cars descent to the bottom of the hill, the PHEV regen-ing as much as possible, the other car using the breaks every now and then. Arriving at the bottom, the battery of the PHEV will be charged to a certain level. When the cars drive back to the top, the first distance traveled by the PHEV will be 'free' in comparison to the other car.

 

[anko]

I think that the usefulness of the regen braking depends on how flat / hilly / mountainous your area is, hence why it's not much use for me!

Are there no traffic lights where you live?

 

[maby]

I think that the usefulness of the regen braking depends on how flat / hilly / mountainous your area is, hence why it's not much use for me!

Are there no traffic lights where you live?

You've never visited Lincolnshire, have you? There's NOTHING there!

 

[anko]

I think that the usefulness of the regen braking depends on how flat / hilly / mountainous your area is, hence why it's not much use for me!

Are there no traffic lights where you live?

You've never visited Lincolnshire, have you? There's NOTHING there!

:lol: If you take your car, where do you take it?

 

[gazter76]

Some really interesting feedback and comments on this.
Just used another tank of fuel with heater mainly on at 18 degrees, and managed to get 70 mpg. This surprised me. Maybe higher temps would suck the juice more?
I think that the usefulness of the regen braking depends on how flat / hilly / mountainous your area is, hence why it's not much use for me!
It would be interesting to know the difference between the energy saved by coasting compared with the energy gained in battery power by using regen braking, then having to speed back up again. I suppose that if you use regen braking skilfully, compared with adjusting your driving to use maximum coasting, there won't be much in it..

Are you on a gx4h or gx3h? If I put the heater on on my gx3h, its as if someone drilled a hole into the petrol tank.

 

[NAPpy]

Regeneration does make a big difference.

We had a loan Aspire PHEV just before Christmas to "try it out". Most of our usage is <50km with the occasional trip away. The wife's work commute is 25km each way with no charging at work (my commute is 23,000 each way :lol: ).

Anyhow, we drove to her work and back just to try the loaner out and we did not make it on pure EV, in fact we were about 10 - 15km short BUT, it was Christmas and the traffic on the freeway was very light with speeds of 100km/h.

Wind forward, we bought the car and experienced the same "not quite making it" on EV only but as people went back to work the traffic got heaver and heavier and eventually back to the moving car park that we call a freeway and low and behold, she gets to work and back on EV only.

I put this down to lower speed and the regeneration. There is a hill near our house, not very long (1km) but quite steep in our terms where we use B5 this generates about 2km range on the EV so IMHO regen works.

When we had a Prius we used to use the B setting (dealer told us this was regen but all it actually did was spin the ICE to slow you down!) so we never saw a good charge. A mate borrowed it to pop into town, when he came back it has 3/4 charge which floored me. When I asked what he did he said "just drove it" So every time he used the brake peddle he was regenerating and achieved a much better SOC than we ever saw. Needless to say, we stopped using "B"

Cheers

NAPpy

 

[aitchjaybee]

......It would be interesting to know the difference between the energy saved by coasting compared with the energy gained in battery power by using regen braking, then having to speed back up again. I suppose that if you use regen braking skilfully, compared with adjusting your driving to use maximum coasting, there won't be much in it..

I have no data to draw any firm conclusion, but the technology to convert kinetic energy through the electric motor by regen into stored power, and then back out to the electric motor when required has not been made lossless, there will be some loss of energy both on the way in, and the way out, so coasting on B0 will be, by the law of physics, more efficient. The question is by how much.

In a way, I don't care. I enjoy paddling. Its been a while since I enjoyed driving a car as much as this. In infuriates me (I know I'm not alone on this!) and excites me too.

I always use B0 as much as possible at the start of the journey as when the battery is full, the regen is very inefficient. But for journeys, sometimes I leave it in D and just let the car 'do its thing', sometimes I paddle furiously, and sometimes I leave it mostly in B5 and vary the accelerator. Overall result on the same commute every day for over 6 months, I barely get 2 miles range difference from technique A over technique B or C! (like NAPpy, I see predicted range jump up after a period of downhill, but thats also partly the predictor of how the journey is, that predicted range suddenly drops once car calculates new average in a bit). The overall achieved range for me hardly varies. Its just technique A suited my mood better or whatever. Even going from 'normal' to 'eco' hardly makes any difference. The real difference in range (thats within control, ie not temp/ weather) is being light footed on the accelerator, looking well ahead and anticipating, and minimising use of auxiliary electrics.

Great car to cause such debate though isn't it!
HJB

 

[jdsx]

......It would be interesting to know the difference between the energy saved by coasting compared with the energy gained in battery power by using regen braking, then having to speed back up again. I suppose that if you use regen braking skilfully, compared with adjusting your driving to use maximum coasting, there won't be much in it..

I have no data to draw any firm conclusion, but the technology to convert kinetic energy through the electric motor by regen into stored power, and then back out to the electric motor when required has not been made lossless, there will be some loss of energy both on the way in, and the way out, so coasting on B0 will be, by the law of physics, more efficient. The question is by how much.

In a way, I don't care. I enjoy paddling. Its been a while since I enjoyed driving a car as much as this. In infuriates me (I know I'm not alone on this!) and excites me too.

I always use B0 as much as possible at the start of the journey as when the battery is full, the regen is very inefficient. But for journeys, sometimes I leave it in D and just let the car 'do its thing', sometimes I paddle furiously, and sometimes I leave it mostly in B5 and vary the accelerator. Overall result on the same commute every day for over 6 months, I barely get 2 miles range difference from technique A over technique B or C! (like NAPpy, I see predicted range jump up after a period of downhill, but thats also partly the predictor of how the journey is, that predicted range suddenly drops once car calculates new average in a bit). The overall achieved range for me hardly varies. Its just technique A suited my mood better or whatever. Even going from 'normal' to 'eco' hardly makes any difference. The real difference in range (thats within control, ie not temp/ weather) is being light footed on the accelerator, looking well ahead and anticipating, and minimising use of auxiliary electrics.

Great car to cause such debate though isn't it!
HJB

+1 to all that HJB Couldn't have put it better myself!

 

[Kim]

I have no data to draw any firm conclusion, but the technology to convert kinetic energy through the electric motor by regen into stored power, and then back out to the electric motor when required has not been made lossless, there will be some loss of energy both on the way in, and the way out, so coasting on B0 will be, by the law of physics, more efficient. The question is by how much.

The answer is: by at least 70%

The efficiency of regenerative braking is only 12-30%

Better than nothing, and better than using up the break pads unneccessary

 

[dkdogg]

......It would be interesting to know the difference between the energy saved by coasting compared with the energy gained in battery power by using regen braking, then having to speed back up again. I suppose that if you use regen braking skilfully, compared with adjusting your driving to use maximum coasting, there won't be much in it..

I have no data to draw any firm conclusion, but the technology to convert kinetic energy through the electric motor by regen into stored power, and then back out to the electric motor when required has not been made lossless, there will be some loss of energy both on the way in, and the way out, so coasting on B0 will be, by the law of physics, more efficient. The question is by how much.

In a way, I don't care. I enjoy paddling. Its been a while since I enjoyed driving a car as much as this. In infuriates me (I know I'm not alone on this!) and excites me too.

I always use B0 as much as possible at the start of the journey as when the battery is full, the regen is very inefficient. But for journeys, sometimes I leave it in D and just let the car 'do its thing', sometimes I paddle furiously, and sometimes I leave it mostly in B5 and vary the accelerator. Overall result on the same commute every day for over 6 months, I barely get 2 miles range difference from technique A over technique B or C! (like NAPpy, I see predicted range jump up after a period of downhill, but thats also partly the predictor of how the journey is, that predicted range suddenly drops once car calculates new average in a bit). The overall achieved range for me hardly varies. Its just technique A suited my mood better or whatever. Even going from 'normal' to 'eco' hardly makes any difference. The real difference in range (thats within control, ie not temp/ weather) is being light footed on the accelerator, looking well ahead and anticipating, and minimising use of auxiliary electrics.

Great car to cause such debate though isn't it!
HJB

+1

I think this sums up why we all got the car in the first place. We love gadgets, and tinkering, and if it calls for it - furious paddling! If we can save a few quid in the process then this is a bonus. And yes, Lincolnshire is like a post apocalyptic waste land. Traffic lights - LUXURY! I also agree with the comment that if driving a GX3h with the heater on, it's like having a hole in the fuel tank!

 

[pkulak]

I'm a big fan of one-pedal driving and it annoys me when EVs don't let you put all the available regen on the accelerator pedal.

 

[PolishPilot]

...
I use B5 most of the time on local roads, not because of ECO, but because (95% of the time) it allows me to control my speed with only one pedal. Just a matter of taste.

I do the same on all roads for the same reason.
I also prefer to use b5 instead of brake pedal.
With brake pedal I never know, if I already use
the mechanical brakes and waste energy, or just regen,
with B5 braking I am sure it is just regen.

After some forward thinking I am almost always able to slow
down to traffic lights without touching the break pedal.

 

[PolishPilot]

....

Like Anko, I've settled on engaging B5 most of the time which then means I can use the accelerator pedal to accelerate, brake and coast. It does take a little time to get used to positioning the pedal correctly, but it's just a matter of muscle memory training. I find doing things this way around is the easiest way to use the full range of regen braking and means I only use the brake pedal for the last few meters before a stop or if there's a car behind.

I think it was Kim who said in another thread, if you're going to slow down anyway, for junctions, corners, traffic, etc., it makes sense to put some of the kinetic energy back into the battery rather than wasting it heating up the brake discs. And there's another small side effect, the brake pads will last longer.

+1

 

[PolishPilot]

....

I don't think that the paddles do anything that you can't achieve with the brake pedal, but they do give you finer control. The first inch or so of pedal depression applies regen braking before there is any significant friction brake applied.

I disagree. The brake pedal gives you no indication "significant friction brake"
being applied.

With B5 and accelerator pedal and energy flow indicator you know
exactly if you are braking, coasting or accelerating.

 

[jaapv]

Well, I certainly feel the different response when friction braking comes in.
Not that it is relevant because you would need the same amount of friction braking to supplement your paddling to obtain the same deceleration. The brake pedal takes you from B2 default to B5 and only then will the friction brakes come in. So regen is identical and so is the wear on your brakepads. (unless you decelerate additionally by hitting something :twisted: )

 

[anko]

Well, I certainly feel the different response when friction braking comes in.

I must be doing something wrong then. Because I have certainly never felt it. Well, while turning or parking my car I have. And when coming to a full stop at a traffic light. But not during normal deceleration.

 

[PolishPilot]

I have feeling, maybe subjective, that when I use B5
the slight pressure on the brake pedal is much more effective
regarding slowing down than wit B2 or B9.

Can anybody confirm?

I try to look also on the power flow gauge, and it also seems
to show higher regeneration power.