Smell of burning

[ukrost2]

I totally agree, the smell is very much like a burnt out clutch or the same smell you get when the windings on a starter motor or other high power motor start to fail. Had a kenwood chef blow up a few weeks ago (motor complete melt down and it was the same smell (just not as strong as I get from the Phev. I've done loads of off roading in proper 4x4's and smelled burning mud, its nothing like the smell from the Outlander and if I got it shortly after getting muddy I would be more likely to think it was, however I get the car washed every week including an underbody wash and do 90% of my driving on the motorway (the rest on clean tarmac as well) so there is no way that any build up of dirt could cause the smell. Mitsubishi are just being evasive and living in denial from my point of view.

 

[HHL]

I totally agree, the smell is very much like a burnt out clutch or the same smell you get when the windings on a starter motor or other high power motor start to fail. Had a kenwood chef blow up a few weeks ago (motor complete melt down and it was the same smell (just not as strong as I get from the Phev. I've done loads of off roading in proper 4x4's and smelled burning mud, its nothing like the smell from the Outlander and if I got it shortly after getting muddy I would be more likely to think it was, however I get the car washed every week including an underbody wash and do 90% of my driving on the motorway (the rest on clean tarmac as well) so there is no way that any build up of dirt could cause the smell. Mitsubishi are just being evasive and living in denial from my point of view.

Only noticed it a few times when I first got the car. The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

 

[maby]

I totally agree, the smell is very much like a burnt out clutch or the same smell you get when the windings on a starter motor or other high power motor start to fail. Had a kenwood chef blow up a few weeks ago (motor complete melt down and it was the same smell (just not as strong as I get from the Phev. I've done loads of off roading in proper 4x4's and smelled burning mud, its nothing like the smell from the Outlander and if I got it shortly after getting muddy I would be more likely to think it was, however I get the car washed every week including an underbody wash and do 90% of my driving on the motorway (the rest on clean tarmac as well) so there is no way that any build up of dirt could cause the smell. Mitsubishi are just being evasive and living in denial from my point of view.

Only noticed it a few times when I first got the car. The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

There is also some kind of clutch mechanism that connects the direct drive when the car transitions to parallel mode, but I have not seen a proper description of that. The smells that I have noticed (admittedly not frequently) have been far more reminiscent of hot electrical equipment than anything mechanical.

 

[ukrost2]

the system is so complex its difficult to guess what could be causing it, however whichever way you look at it, the smell is too strong and too much like burning to be right in any way. Mine is a lease car from my company and the lease company are looking into it as they too are not happy with the lack of response from Mitsubishi

 

[jaapv]

Whatever the cause is, PHEVs have been doing this since the introduction of the car. Mine at 60.000 Km still can cause a whiff of this smell if I overuse Charge. Given the number of cars on the road and the millions of Kms driven and the non-existence of any negative result of the smell, I would classify it as harmless. And yes - it gets less obtrusive over time to the point that it is unnoticeable for 95% of the time or even more.

 

[HHL]

I totally agree, the smell is very much like a burnt out clutch or the same smell you get when the windings on a starter motor or other high power motor start to fail. Had a kenwood chef blow up a few weeks ago (motor complete melt down and it was the same smell (just not as strong as I get from the Phev. I've done loads of off roading in proper 4x4's and smelled burning mud, its nothing like the smell from the Outlander and if I got it shortly after getting muddy I would be more likely to think it was, however I get the car washed every week including an underbody wash and do 90% of my driving on the motorway (the rest on clean tarmac as well) so there is no way that any build up of dirt could cause the smell. Mitsubishi are just being evasive and living in denial from my point of view.

Only noticed it a few times when I first got the car. The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

There is also some kind of clutch mechanism that connects the direct drive when the car transitions to parallel mode, but I have not seen a proper description of that. The smells that I have noticed (admittedly not frequently) have been far more reminiscent of hot electrical equipment than anything mechanical.

That one is an oil pressure operated wet clutch as commonly found in auto transmission, it is not likely to be the culprit.

 

[anko]

The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

IMHO, the info we believed to be true so far was this:

- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between engine and generator.
- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between front E-motor and front axle.
- There is a clutch between engine/generator side of the drivetrain and e-motor/axle side of the drivetrain, which is closed in parallel mode and opened in series mode.

That friction plates in that clutch have very little work to do, because right before closure of the clutch the generator is used to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the wheels. This is also why parallel mode is engaged so smoothly.

So, the only clutch we knew of does have a release mechanism, there has been no talk about a clutch between engine and generator and none about a torque limiter either. Do you have a source for your information?

BTW: assuming the old info was correct, I think the clutch could only be a source for the smell if it was mal functioning (and if it was not 'wet'). Or after very many transitions between serial and parallel hybrid mode in a very short time frame. And even then, it would be not very likely to produce a smell, taking into account the role of the generator.

Some of the reports about the smell are related to long high speed motorway hauls. My personal experiences with the smell are related to low speed (< parallel mode speed) towing, where the clutch does not come in play at all. Personally, I think we can safely rule out the clutch as a source for the smell.

 

[Carnut]

I was advised by the dealer that it was just the engine getting hot ! B@ll@x thought I! None of my 71 cars have produced such a revolting pong when the engines got hot!

 

[jaapv]

The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

IMHO, the info we believed to be true so far was this:

- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between engine and generator.
- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between front E-motor and front axle.
- There is a clutch between engine/generator side of the drivetrain and e-motor/axle side of the drivetrain, which is closed in parallel mode and opened in series mode.

That friction plates in that clutch have very little work to do, because right before closure of the clutch the generator is used to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the wheels. This is also why parallel mode is engaged so smoothly.

So, the only clutch we knew of does have a release mechanism, there has been no talk about a clutch between engine and generator and none about a torque limiter either. Do you have a source for your information?

BTW: assuming the old info was correct, I think the clutch could only be a source for the smell if it was mal functioning (and if it was not 'wet'). Or after very many transitions between serial and parallel hybrid mode in a very short time frame. And even then, it would be not very likely to produce a smell, taking into account the role of the generator.

Some of the reports about the smell are related to long high speed motorway hauls. My personal experiences with the smell are related to low speed (< parallel mode speed) towing, where the clutch does not come in play at all. Personally, I think we can safely rule out the clutch as a source for the smell.

+1

 

[jaapv]

I was advised by the dealer that it was just the engine getting hot ! B@ll@x thought I! None of my 71 cars have produced such a revolting pong when the engines got hot!

Well, there is certainly something getting hot...

 

[ukrost2]

my sentiments entirely. Grab the £40k from the customer and then give bugger all customer service - very disappointed in MMC

 

[jaapv]

This seems to be a common complaint in the UK. My experience with two dealers is completely different. - As with a number of other brand dealers.

 

[HHL]

The car does have a "clutch", it is the torque limiter that is between the engine and the drive unit. It looks just like a clutch with a friction and pressure plate, except it does not have a release mechanism, so it is designed to slip when the engine develops more torque than the generator/drive unit can handle. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but if it did slip a lot, it could certainly produce that type of odour.

IMHO, the info we believed to be true so far was this:

- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between engine and generator.
- There is a permanent fixed gear ratio connection between front E-motor and front axle.
- There is a clutch between engine/generator side of the drivetrain and e-motor/axle side of the drivetrain, which is closed in parallel mode and opened in series mode.

That friction plates in that clutch have very little work to do, because right before closure of the clutch the generator is used to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the wheels. This is also why parallel mode is engaged so smoothly.

So, the only clutch we knew of does have a release mechanism, there has been no talk about a clutch between engine and generator and none about a torque limiter either. Do you have a source for your information?

BTW: assuming the old info was correct, I think the clutch could only be a source for the smell if it was mal functioning (and if it was not 'wet'). Or after very many transitions between serial and parallel hybrid mode in a very short time frame. And even then, it would be not very likely to produce a smell, taking into account the role of the generator.

Some of the reports about the smell are related to long high speed motorway hauls. My personal experiences with the smell are related to low speed (< parallel mode speed) towing, where the clutch does not come in play at all. Personally, I think we can safely rule out the clutch as a source for the smell.

+1

Look at the diagram in the technical manual (p62), and you will see!
It is not called a clutch, it is called a peak torque limiter, and it sits between the engine and everything else. It is constructed just like a normal dry clutch, except it has no release mechanism, so, it is designed to slip when required.

 

[anko]

Look at the diagram in the technical manual (p62), and you will see!
It is not called a clutch, it is called a peak torque limiter, and it sits between the engine and everything else. It is constructed just like a normal dry clutch, except it has no release mechanism, so, it is designed to slip when required.

Thanks. See it now (apparently, I've been focussing too much on the GKN drivetrain itself). So, we have a torque limiter and a real clutch.

I can imagine that, if the torque limiter slipped, you could smell it, ask it is dry. Then the question is: whether, when and how often it will slip under what conditions.

 

[Carnut]

Oh dear, we aren't starting the gearbox discussion again are we?
According to various Youtube road tests there IS a CVT TYPE gearbox between ICE & generator. It is, however, not the sort of CVT we know in Hondas for example. This has been confirmedby MMC U.K..
If you listen very carefully when the ICE is running you can hear the revs drop as you accelerate.

 

[HHL]

Look at the diagram in the technical manual (p62), and you will see!
It is not called a clutch, it is called a peak torque limiter, and it sits between the engine and everything else. It is constructed just like a normal dry clutch, except it has no release mechanism, so, it is designed to slip when required.

Thanks. See it now (apparently, I've been focussing too much on the GKN drivetrain itself). So, we have a torque limiter and a real clutch.

I can imagine that, if the torque limiter slipped, you could smell it, ask it is dry. Then the question is: whether, when and how often it will slip under what conditions.

One scenario could be in charge mode, if the battery is fairly low and full power is demanded, the engine will rev seriously, developing more than 80kw, however, the generator can only make use of 70kw, therefore it makes the torque limiter come into play.
I would hope that this would not happen all that often, as the thing would eventually burn out.

 

[HHL]

Oh dear, we aren't starting the gearbox discussion again are we?
According to various Youtube road tests there IS a CVT TYPE gearbox between ICE & generator. It is, however, not the sort of CVT we know in Hondas for example. This has been confirmedby MMC U.K..
If you listen very carefully when the ICE is running you can hear the revs drop as you accelerate.

No it isn't
and no careful listening will make it so.
It is ONE fixed gear ratio............

 

[anko]

Then the question is: whether, when and how often it will slip under what conditions.

One scenario could be in charge mode, if the battery is fairly low and full power is demanded, the engine will rev seriously, developing more than 80kw, however, the generator can only make use of 70kw, therefore it makes the torque limiter come into play.
I would hope that this would not happen all that often, as the thing would eventually burn out.[/quote]The engine will normally rev at 4100 RPM (out of a maximum of 4500). This already limits the power to about 82 kW, as the engine has not yet reached peak torque at 4100 RPM.This scenario would imply that the engine overshoots on its way to 4100 RPM and reaches higher RPMs and thus higher kWs. But for this scenario, we would need an RPM limiter or kW limiter. Not a torque limiter.

It must be very sudden increases of engine torque, where the generator cannot keep up. Or ... sudden increases of generator torque where the engine cannot keep up (think about the generator starting the engine).

Edit - Same Technical document says the generator takes 82 kW (not 70) out of 87 kW max from the engine, producing 70 kW of electrical power, resulting of 60 kW of mechanical power at the wheels. Updated my post accordingly.

 

[Carnut]

Oh dear, we aren't starting the gearbox discussion again are we?
According to various Youtube road tests there IS a CVT TYPE gearbox between ICE & generator. It is, however, not the sort of CVT we know in Hondas for example. This has been confirmedby MMC U.K..
If you listen very carefully when the ICE is running you can hear the revs drop as you accelerate.

No it isn't
and no careful listening will make it so.
It is ONE fixed gear ratio............

Oh well I'm not prepared to start this stupid argument all over again.
MMC UK and my Dealer who obviously services them and has been on courses specific to the car, told me there is a TYPE of CVT in the line and I CAN hear the revs drop. Having had a few CVT drives I am used to the noise they make when ratios alter.
Also, as I said, Road testers on Youtube also say there is and we can assume that MMC briefed then fully before allowing them to test the cars.

I know who I shall believe!
I am not getting drawn into this again. There are so many people that think they know better than the Importers and dealers, it is pointless getting into a discussion.

 

[anko]

Oh well I'm not prepared to start this stupid argument all over again.

I hope you understand IT WAS YOU who kicked of the discussion this time. HHL and myself where talking about whether or not there is a torque limiter in the drive line. Nothing to do with CSV or no CSV. If you do not understand the difference, then maybe you should not interfere. Last time you backed out of the discussion when it became to complicated for you. This time you restart the discussion and try to back out immediately. Rather annoying. Almost makes me wonder if you are not just trolling.