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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3252
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
anko wrote:
Yesterday, my wife took the car to work without preheating. Ended up with 99.13% (0.2 Ah below SoH). This morning I took it after preheating. Ended up at 100,73% (0.2 Ah above SoH)
And in the evening, on my way home, I did not preheat. Ended up with almost same end result (100,9%, 0.2 Ah above SoH).


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3252
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
Dropped back to 26.3 last night, within 900 km / 3 weeks after an increase from 26.0 to 26.8 via DBCAM :?


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 934
Location: Poland
anko wrote:
anko wrote:
Yesterday, my wife took the car to work without preheating. Ended up with 99.13% (0.2 Ah below SoH). This morning I took it after preheating. Ended up at 100,73% (0.2 Ah above SoH)
And in the evening, on my way home, I did not preheat. Ended up with almost same end result (100,9%, 0.2 Ah above SoH).


Assuming you used the keyfob hack for preheat ...
It is looking like that also for your PHEV, the preheating energy consumed is not properly recognize by the BMU, else it would be impossible to have 100.9 SOC after ending of the preheating process ... right ?

I did check this again, but not in 100% exact condition, if the preheating via the WiFi is visible by the BMU .. and apparently it is :
the Car got fully charge overnight, then it had a rest of 2h ... then it got a WiFi preheat ... and the battery before usage was 31Ah @4.063v (SOH is 33.9Ah) ... so the 2.9Ah missing from 100% is consistent with preheating plus the classic 0.5Ah drop from 100%

So ... does it means that using the keyfob hack for preheating could fool the car about the real SOC

I guess ... for "trick" the BMU, for let it believe the car has a better SOH then real .. it would be needed to use the preheating keyfob hack while or just before the car get charged .. so the charging process would be looking longer then BMU would assume
As well ... preheating after charge should be done via WiFi, else the BMU will see less usable capacity


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3252
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
elm70 wrote:
anko wrote:
anko wrote:
Yesterday, my wife took the car to work without preheating. Ended up with 99.13% (0.2 Ah below SoH). This morning I took it after preheating. Ended up at 100,73% (0.2 Ah above SoH)
And in the evening, on my way home, I did not preheat. Ended up with almost same end result (100,9%, 0.2 Ah above SoH).


Assuming you used the keyfob hack for preheat ...
It is looking like that also for your PHEV, the preheating energy consumed is not properly recognize by the BMU, else it would be impossible to have 100.9 SOC after ending of the preheating process ... right ?
Hang on, I said I did NOT preheat ;-)

Also, when preheating via FOB, I can see both Ah and SoC go down.

SoH is supposed to be calibrated from time to time by applying 230 volt charges. Pre programmed trend line based SoH can be to low or to high. When to low, it requires SoC > 100% before it will be calibrated upwards. So, by itself values > 100% are not that unexpected. Or are they?

My last drop of 0.5 was after I had values << 100%.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
Posts: 934
Location: Poland
Quote:
This morning I took it after preheating. Ended up at 100,73%


anko wrote:
Hang on, I said I did NOT preheat ;-)

Also, when preheating via FOB, I can see both Ah and SoC go down.

SoH is supposed to be calibrated from time to time by applying 230 volt charges. Pre programmed trend line based SoH can be to low or to high. When to low, it requires SoC > 100% before it will be calibrated upwards. So, by itself values > 100% are not that unexpected. Or are they?

My last drop of 0.5 was after I had values << 100%.


Actually from the post above I got you did once preheat and once not ... and after preheat you got 100.7% SOC .. which would be impossible, since the preheat power is above the charging power .. so SOC after preheat should be less then 100%

Anyhow ... the main difference is that you preheat with the battery still connected to the charger, which is able to charge the car.
In my case, my car is still connected to the charger, but my charged has lost already the 220v power due to timer between the wall plug and the charger.

About the SOC more or less then 100% after a full charge ... I still don't have any idea if this impact or not the SOH
I would assume that full charge is controlled ONLY by the max voltage per cell (it would be very wrong to charge the battery using the assumed SOH and SOC) ... and possibly if the charging current is monitored, if the charging current in Ah is more the the delta SOC ... then SOH should be increased .. else if delta is negative .. SOH should be reduced
Even if it is correct to measure only the capacity while discharging a battery, in Lithium battery the charging current is very close to the discharge current, especially at charging and discharging rate below 0.3C (with charging/discharge time over 3 hours) ... so maybe both charging and discharging current ... plus the voltage at rest .. is used by the BMU for update the SOH


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3252
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
elm70 wrote:
Actually from the post above I got you did once preheat and once not ... and after preheat you got 100.7% SOC .. which would be impossible, since the preheat power is above the charging power .. so SOC after preheat should be less then 100%
Sorry, I meant preheat -> drive -> charge > end up with 100.7% :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
I think it charges up to 4.10 volt regardless of everything else.

While doing so, it takes:
- SoC at beginning of charge
- Existing notion of SoH
- Amount of energy added

To keep track of SoC during the charing process in relation to existing notion of SoH. If SoH was 28 and SoC was 25%, then you would expect SoC to reach 100% when (the equivalent of) 75% of 28 Ah has been added during the charging process. If more is added before 4.10 volt is reached, SoC will rise above 100%. If less was added, SoC will stay below 100%. If SoC at end of charge is structurally low (or structurally high) the notion of SoH can be adjusted by the BMU.

I think it will not look at SoC directly after charge, as it usually sinks a bit. When new, I saw 107+% on a regular basis, immediately after charging had completed. To drop significantly in the next few hours. Lets not forget, the DBCAM doc says several criteria need to be met before 230 volt charges can be used to calibrate SoH value. Maybe the car needs a good rest after the charge. And maybe one before as well ;-)

Also, what I cannot explain from the above is the jumps in SoC that you see during cell balancing. Yesterday, I saw +3.5% during last phase balancing. Can't explain. Unless ... that was the last charge before I lost 0.5 Ah. Adjusting notion of SoH down would result in adjusting notion of SoC up. But the drop of SoH was only visible the next day. Not directly sat the end of the charge.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm
Posts: 28
Location: British Columbia, Canada
elm70 wrote:
anko wrote:
anko wrote:
Yesterday, my wife took the car to work without preheating. Ended up with 99.13% (0.2 Ah below SoH). This morning I took it after preheating. Ended up at 100,73% (0.2 Ah above SoH)
And in the evening, on my way home, I did not preheat. Ended up with almost same end result (100,9%, 0.2 Ah above SoH).


Assuming you used the keyfob hack for preheat ...


what is the keyfob hack? Will it work on my Canadian/18? I truly hate using the cell phone app for this!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
Posts: 3252
Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
mellobob wrote:
what is the keyfob hack? Will it work on my Canadian/18? I truly hate using the cell phone app for this!!!!
What is a search function? :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2118


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm
Posts: 28
Location: British Columbia, Canada
anko wrote:
mellobob wrote:
what is the keyfob hack? Will it work on my Canadian/18? I truly hate using the cell phone app for this!!!!
What is a search function? :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2118


Just to redeem my forum-foo somewhat, I did try a search before asking the question :) I just didn't see the thread you so kindly have linked to.

Thanks ... now I get to read 10 pages of stuff!!!


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