Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
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Location: Poland
Thanks Anko

What is the difference between the red line (which was ending the charge at 4.110v) and the orange line (which was at 4.101v) ?
Was two different charging processes, or are these the max and min cell in the battery pack ?

Yes, apparently , it is looking a perfectly normal charging process :geek: .. actually ... the precise flat line is very suspicious

About the suspicious ... I would expect the balancing process ongoing while the battery is in the final phase of the charging process, so the max voltage cell should have a load for reduce its capacity ... and this normally is not compatible with a perfectly constant voltage


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:20 am 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
Red line is total pack voltage (plotted against right Y-axis). Orange line is max cell voltage (plotted against left Y-axis).


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
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Location: Poland
anko wrote:
Red line is total pack voltage (plotted against right Y-axis). Orange line is max cell voltage (plotted against left Y-axis).


So ... 328v pack voltage constant and 4.101v (moving to 4.100 and 4.099) for max cell.

It is looking a quite well balanced pack on the max voltage (which does not means it is also balance at different charge level and/or different loads)

Did you ever notice if in the past the charging voltage was higher ? I think my old firmware was charging more then my current one ...


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:30 am
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
Cell voltage diff (ranging from 1 to 6 mV) plotted against pack voltage:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:27 am 
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This is supposedly the procedure for PHEV MY 14-16 a dealer should follow before a claim for battery replacement can be filed with MMC after a customer complains about reduced range and the battery is still under warranty:
1) Check Battery current capacity: above 26Ah is OK (no further action)
2) Less than 26Ah? Charge via CCIB box at 10Amp
3) Charged? Then check cell voltage difference (BMU data list #22)
4) Cell voltage difference < 0,020V? Check capacity: >26Ah OK (no further action), <26Ah go to 6)
5) Cell voltage difference > 0,020V? Perform cell smoothening with MUT-IIISE & check Cell Voltage < 0,020V
If > 0,020V repeat the procedure for smoothening cells for a maximum of 3 times.
Check Battery current capacity: above 26Ah is OK(no further action), < 26Ah go to 6)
6) When Cell voltage difference <0.020V and capacity below 26Ah OR action 5) was unsuccessful after 3 attempts & < 26Ah the dealer can request for battery replacement.

Bottom line: when smoothening doesn’t bring up the capacity above 26Ah a claim can be made.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:42 am 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
MikeB wrote:
This is supposedly the procedure for PHEV MY 14-16 a dealer should follow ....
Thanks for sharing, Mike. Any source for this? On FB, a different procedure was shared from different sources that involves the DBCAM procedure. DBCAM goes a bit further than just cell smoothing. I have been denied a warranty claim twice, because capacity ended up above the threshold after a DBCAM procedure.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:51 pm 
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A dealer showed me this procedure after my complaint the range was notably less. So I started at <26Ah and after this procedure it's over 26Ah again.
This like to see me again in a couple of months.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
MikeB wrote:
A dealer showed me this procedure after my complaint the range was notably less. So I started at <26Ah and after this procedure it's over 26Ah again.
This like to see me again in a couple of months.
An official Mitsu document from Finland, that was posten in the PHEVWatchDog FB page describes almost exact same procedure, but towards the end it requires a DBCAM procedure, not a cell smoothening procedure. And indeed, a DBCAM is likely to increase your SoH, a cell smoothening procedure not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Location: Netherlands, Utrecht area
How about these SoC jumps during the cell balancing phase of AC charges?

We know SoC can be adjust up or down during cel balancing. I just saw a jump from 80,0% to 85+%. But what does it mean? I can think of two things:

A) The BMU thought that, with the amount of energy added, SoC had rissen to 80%, but it turns out SoC has rissen to 85%. Same amount of energy adds 5% extra SoC, so capacity must be less than the BMU thought it was.

B) The BMU thought that, with the amount of energy added, SoC had rissen to 80%, but it turns out SoC has rissen to 85%. So, SoC at the beginning of the Charge cycle must have been higher than the BMU thought it was, so capacity must be more than the BMU thought it was.

C) ....

Any thought?

Also, usually we see the grid side power draw go to approx. 100 watts during the cell balancing phase(s). On the battery side, power is 0. Apparently, the 100 watts are consumed by the process itself. Every now and then I see power flowing out of the battery for a very very short time. Think of 53 - 55 watts. Just a little spike (unfortunately most likely to short for the Dog to pick it up). Just now, I saw a power draw of about 100 watts for several 10s of seconds. Never seen that before. What could that mean?

Final one for now. The tapering off at the end of the cycle seems not at a fixed moment in time. Right now, my SoC is at 90.8% and power fed into the battery (DC side) is still 2900 watts. Yesterday I saw it taper of as early as 80%. Must say, I believe it skipped the balancing at 80% and did one at 97% or 98% instead.

- edit -
The charge has finished at 104,98% (27.6 Ah out of 26.3 Ah). Just 2 hours later I initiated a top-up charge so my adapter would wake up and I could check soc again. Went down to less than 98%. By the time the top-up finished it was still less that 99%.


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 Post subject: Re: Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a proble
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:18 pm
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Location: Poland
How accurate you can monitor the charging current via OBD2 ?

The DOG, apparently can't report anything below 1Amp ... so even monitoring the full charging process, there will be too much error if the charging current is integrated over the time

But, if you can monitor the charging current at 0.1A accuracy ... then you should be able to integrate this current and have a precise number of Ah which get push into the battery while charging.

Only in this way you can know if the SOC above 100%, is due to the fact that the battery got more Ah then expected by the SOC % delta + SOH .. or for some different type of estimation error.

PS: In my case, today, I got the SOC above the real (similar to how reported time ago) ... the DOG reported my morning trip to be started with 33.1Ah and 4.05v max (97.9% SOC) .. after a 10min pre-heat via keyfob hack ... since car was not charging while pre-heating at best the SOC should have been 31.6Ah ... but I also doubt that the car got charged up to 35.3Ah .. so ... it must be that sometime the SOC don't count in the pre-heating ... sometime .. since sometime it is looking it is properly counted inside the SOC (even when this is activated by keyfob hack)


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