4WD system does not work, I chase Mitsu for solution.

[Trex]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaate, of course we all talk that way here...



I was wondering if the beeping was the parking sonar? I have the same model, and that is the most beepy aspect of the car.

:lol: :lol: I guess it is when he is concentrating on driving and talking he gets a little slowwwww. But that is understandable.

The parking sensor? Surely not. That was the first thing I turned off on mine. But the wife uses it I think.

Why did he not turn the bloody thing off?

I guess he did not know that you could. :lol:

 

[jaapv]

Ok this is a video I found from Allan Whiting here in Australia who is famous with 4wd fanatics here. I do not consider myself a 4wd fanatic. I just have to use them in my business, but even I have heard of him. :roll:

Note when he goes up his test incline.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIcsem1MEZY


Some of those washouts are pretty deep which is common on some of our tracks. But he picks his lines resonable well IMO and he mentions tyres.

I love it when he says "its not very happy " :lol: "it doesn't like this at all" :lol:

"but its doing it"

Does it beep like that when you have traction problems? :roll: or is it something else?

I have never heard it on mine. But like I have said before I have not taken my PHEV into difficult conditions yet.

That could be annoying. :lol:

Also notice what he does when he has cross axle problems like turning the front wheels.

I might not agree with all of his comments though. 8.4lts/100kms ( sounds a bit high to me :? ) is one of them.

ps and no we all do not talk that way here in Australia. :lol:

I think the beeping is the front proximity sensors which are angled outwards and he did not notice that "engine braking" is provided by the paddles. He appears to expect the ICE to do so.

Anyway, tyres and technique, I guess. Mitsubishi certainly seems to think so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WL-csch2rg

But here is a good illustration ofvthe cross-axle problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxhdFGmbk8k

And this one mentions the tyres again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D2obMHziNQ

 

[Gilbo]

Engine braking is not provided by the paddles at low speeds only at higher speeds (he does mention this in the clip).

 

[greendwarf]

Engine braking is not provided by the paddles at low speeds only at higher speeds (he does mention this in the clip).

And of course, regen only mimics "engine braking" but also must depend on the wheel speed unlike engine braking" - so the lower the road speed the lower the opportunity for "regen braking".

 

[MartinH]

Back again!, a weekend in the forrest, but this time the PHEV did not have to pull the trailer with the wheel loader.
I have read most of your comments, i agree, and disagree.
I have purchased a 4WD car, and i expect it to function as a 4WD, if not mitsu has to inform me.
Some notes states that it can not be improved with software, OF COURSE it can, if they are interested, Diff lock is not everything, it is rater easy to improve alot with just using Power transferr and ABS brakes.
Example: if the car is standing still, very easy to sensor this, allow max rpm of the wheels to 60rpm/min, adjust the Power to each wheel by braking the spining wheel/wheels with the ABS, when the car is starting to move, very easy to sensor, use the speed + 60rpm/min as the max rpm of the wheels and follow up to 10km/h or similar, then release this system, how difficult can it be?
If they program this, every one will be happy, most people would not even know it exists, and it will help me alot.
YES! i know it is not 100%, but as i have discussed earlier, it will be 90% problem solver.
I heard something about the tyres, and yes, tyres are important, to avoid using special tyres and chains i use 4WD cars, if i want to use chains all days, i can pull the trailer with a Ford Sierra from 1990, this car with chains on back wheels will do the job.
And when it is tricky, i still use my Mercedes ML 270CDI with manual, diff lock and low gear, with this car i can pull the trailer in half it it stucks!.

 

[Trex]

I heard something about the tyres, and yes, tyres are important, to avoid using special tyres and chains i use 4WD cars, if i want to use chains all days, i can pull the trailer with a Ford Sierra from 1990, this car with chains on back wheels will do the job.
And when it is tricky, i still use my Mercedes ML 270CDI with manual, diff lock and low gear, with this car i can pull the trailer in half it it stucks!.

So you will not tell me what tyres are on your PHEV (and I did ask nicely) can you tell me what tyres are on your ML 270CDI please?
Regards Trex

 

[MartinH]

Sorry!, i forgot to answer.
The PHEV has Nokian Hakka R unstudded Winter tyres 225/50-18, very expensive.
The ML has the cheepes M+S approved unstudded tyres, Roadstone 245/60-17.

 

[Trex]

Sorry!, i forgot to answer.
The PHEV has Nokian Hakka R unstudded Winter tyres 225/50-18, very expensive.
The ML has the cheepes M+S approved unstudded tyres, Roadstone 245/60-17.

No problem .

Do the Roadstone M+S tyres look like this http://www.ozzytyres.com.au/roadstone-235-65r17-103s-ro-at.html

but in a different size.

Regards Trex.

 

[MartinH]

Was confused with the price, checked on the car, I have Goodride SU318 245/65-17, cheep tyres, I can buy them here for 625SEK/pcs, estimated 60 Euro/each.

 

[Steepndeep]

I partly agree with you Martin. The 4WD system is really a 4WD so hard to blame Mitsu on that. However the Mitsu advertising on the "extremely good S-AWS" system and "excellent 4WD" is clearly misleading.

Some people by a 4WD to just feel safer in slippery conditions, like snow and ice, and here I think it actually delivers.

Other buy a 4WD do climb the last steep slope to their wintercottage or haul a boat up a ramp, and here I think it clearly underperforms. As others have also indicated. What you need here is a lot of torque and at least a locking center diff. Problem with two motors is that you loose half of the power when one wheel spins. Other problem is that the 4WD-lock implementation is way over-advertized misleading people to believe it works the same as a locking center diff. It clearly does not.

I think your proposal for revised software would be nice to test.

Tesla Model X is also 4WD and supposedly able to pull a boat up a ramp. Anyone knowing how their drivesystem is implemented?

 

[jaapv]

Well, yes, but the Tesla X is a car with three motors instead of the two of the PHEV.

 

[Steepndeep]

I do not think so

See from Wikipedia on Model X

The company planned to offer rear-wheel drive models, but instead all models incorporate all wheel drive. The standard AWD has 259 horsepower (193 kilowatts) on both the front and rear motors, while the performance edition has 259 hp (193 kW) front and 503 hp (375 kW) rear.[35][36]

Basically the Model X is based on the Model S base frame (engines, battery, suspension etc)

 

[jaapv]

Sorry, you're right, two motors.

 

[anko]

Sorry, you're right, two motors.

Indeed. More than 3 times and more than 6 times as powerful as ours. Does it make sense to compare (apart form the fact that the car is well over 100.000 euros)?

 

[Steepndeep]

Yes it does.

If they have no diffs and trying to tow a boat up a muddy ramp it does not really matter how powerful the engines are. It is rather a matter of getting the power you have to the ground. Would be nice to know if they have better software. If not, Martins complaint on wildly spinning wheels will get a new dimension with 3 or 6 times the engine power. Who can through mud the highest in the air contest comes to mind :mrgreen:

 

[Grigou]

This problem was discussed at great length in the 'towing a boat up a ramp' thread.
http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2676

I think we acknowledged that the trailer nose weight tended to relieve the front axle of traction, and then the amount of torque available to the back axle was limited. It's just the way the electric drive is designed, I'm sure it's good for normal road use, or light off-roading.

When a front wheel begin to spin, the amount of torque available to the back axle is too much limited !
On snow it can sometimes be a pity ... no way to move the car in a slope if one front wheel is spinning in the snow. The 3 others where sleeping, accelerator at 100 % ! And the 2 back wheels were on the tarmac !

Ok it's the way the electric drive is designed but it's a stupid way. I am an engineer but don't know why I couldn't blame other engineers when the do not do a god job. It should not be very difficult to split the power in 4 WD Lock : 30 kW for the front axle and same value for the rear one max in EV mode for example. Or better : when a wheel is spinning, the power could be transferred almost entirely to the other axle. It's just electronics and electrotechnics. No ?

Mitsi didn't do that. Why ? :?:

 

[anko]

I know I have said myself the issue was that we cannot transfer power from one axle to the other. But really you wouls need to redirect torque to the other axle to compensate loss of traction, because torque is what gets you rolling, not power.

 

[Grigou]

Yes, torque if you prefer, it doesn't matter for me.

No power without torque, no movement without power

 

[anko]

But it does matter. A lot. As you say, in EV mode we have 60 kW available that can / could be distributed over front and rear axles. So, (in theory) we do not have to loose any power. But torque is not limited by the battery, but by the specs of the motors. Like it or not, we loose half of the available torque when one axle has no grip. and the remaining torque may simply not be enough to get going.

 

[ian4x4]

In the video clip below of the boat ramp, the rear wheels are stalled and not moving.
http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2676

I therefore believe that this is not a tyre problem, but a torque, or control of torque problem.
Also I am not sure about how these motors work at zero speed and how much torque can be generated.

I know times and designs have changed, but I have experienced electric motors which were hard to get going from stopped condition when they were loaded.

Please, an our experts enlighten me as to the stall characteristics of this type of motor.