Battery mileage

[AndyInOz]

No dramas, I should have guessed that anyway.

 

[SS2115]

Okay. Its only the first log but results are -
Charged by Mitsubishi provided charger till it shut off which was over about 5 hours and a battery range indication of 32klms.
Dash mileage = 33,156klms.
This morning with 5 klms remaining on the battery indicator and the blue gauge a little below 1/4, the engine kicked in on its own for the first time. For a short time it only idled even though I was driving, but after about 30 seconds it increased to about 1500rpm which is about right for the speed I was doing.
This was at a tripmeter reading of 33,176 klms - exactly 20kilometres covered while the battery gauge says I got 27kilometres out of the battery.
I'll keep driving today to see if the 5lkms gets depleted and how often the ICE comes in.

 

[SS2115]

Okay. Its only the first log but results are -
Charged by Mitsubishi provided charger till it shut off which was over about 5 hours and a battery range indication of 32klms.
Dash mileage = 33,156klms.
This morning with 5 klms remaining on the battery indicator and the blue gauge a little below 1/4, the engine kicked in on its own for the first time. For a short time it only idled even though I was driving, but after about 30 seconds it increased to about 1500rpm which is about right for the speed I was doing.
This was at a tripmeter reading of 33,176 klms - exactly 20kilometres covered while the battery gauge says I got 27kilometres out of the battery.
I'll keep driving today to see if the 5lkms gets depleted and how often the ICE comes in.

Update: it used the 5 klms and then went to - - - and the ICE cut in. Then after a very brief stop, I still ran on EV for another 4klms with the three dashes and now the motor cuts in and out quite regularly even with slight pedal use. So 33,186 and completely empty of battery.
So 30 klms actual and 36 klms battery indicated.

Its only one test granted, but i expected more. I understood the battery should charge to an indicated 54klms or close, and then the actual driving range would be between 40 to 50. Certainly better than 30 actual kilometres.

 

[littlescrote]

30km at what speed, on what terrain?

 

[mellobob]

30km at what speed, on what terrain?

And at what outside temperature, and were you using the heater or A/C?

 

[AndyInOz]

30km at what speed, on what terrain?

And at what outside temperature, and were you using the heater or A/C?

And what load did you have in/on the vehicle?

 

[SS2115]

Hi again.
Most days were around 20 degrees with the last few being 28 - 29 degrees (I have been recording the ambient temp on my log sheet).
AC on all the time.
No other load other than myself - an embarrassing 104kg.
Terrain mostly flat with one hill occasionally transversed and return down same hill to get the mail - approx 3.5 kilometres.

As per last post, I ran the battery right out yesterday and I charged it overnight.
Once again it only charges to 33klms of range. Thats my bug.

I did 13 klms of driving this morning, and the actual trip meter and battery indicator remained fairly close. The battery is not depleted yet - its at 16klms remaining.

But this isn't my complaint. My complaint is that whether its by plug-in or by forcing the car to Charge and using B5, it won't charge to more than 33klms battery range and says it full.
Spec says it should get 54klms and I realise thats in perfect conditions etc etc etc and that realistically in actual driving owners will get less. But I should be getting between 40 and 50klms on an overnight charge or long period of forced charge running on fuel only surely???

Why can I only get 33klms range is my concern.
I know your probably going to say the guessometre has adjusted to my driving style perhaps, but I can promise you that when in EV I never go out of the green zone on the dial and the engine never cuts in. I have no need to even if I was a leadfoot because of the traffic and traffic lights in my area. Its why I gave up my beloved BM and went for this PHEV - the BM was choking and high consumption under my driving conditions since I stopped the long drives and business trips away.

 

[Trex]

Spec says it should get 54klms and I realise thats in perfect conditions etc etc etc and that realistically in actual driving owners will get less. But I should be getting between 40 and 50klms on an overnight charge or long period of forced charge running on fuel only surely???

Why can I only get 33klms range is my concern.

Ok I will try to keep this simple for now but no matter what anyone says the BMU (Battery Management Unit) on the PHEV is just guessing the capacity of the EV drive battery on the PHEV at any particular time.

So what does this mean? The PHEV never under normal circumstances empties the EV drive battery. It normally only let you empty the drive battery down to approx 30% or slightly lower. Yes, when that battery gauge on our PHEV shows empty there is still approx 30% left in it. But this may/may not apply to the new model PHEV.

So how do you measure the capacity of a battery ? You normally empty it down to a voltage where it is considered empty then measure the amps or current x the time taken to fill to a voltage considered max for that chemistry of battery. Or vice versa charge a battery to full then measure the amps x time to empty. These measures will give a Ah capacity of a battery at any given time.

Now knowing our PHEVS never truly empties the battery normally how does the car know it's capacity to work out say how far the PHEV can travel?

Now I have gone into this in detail in other threads but basically the BMU "guesses" using voltage, age of battery, current in/out etc. Now the thing is all batteries degrade over time or use (cycles) and there are processes, chemistry, thermal management etc that can effect that aging or degradation.

Now when your battery was new it could get about 52 kms from memory at around town speeds of 60 kph or less I found. Now your seeing 33 kms. That could be from degradation and/or a out of whack BMU or even speed AC use etc. But I can assure you will have some degradation or to put it simply a reduction in range from when it was new. That just the physics of our current state of battery technology.

If you are happy with those 33 kms for your driving between charges I suggest you do nothing. If you are unhappy with 33 Kms or you really want to know your true capacity of your EV drive battery or even how much your drive battery has degraded which costs money even under warranty (or it did me) there is a process called DBCAM (Drive Battery Capacity Automatic Measurement) supplied by Mitsubishi. That process totally empties the drive battery (using electric heaters and AC etc) and measures the current taken to charge to full.

Now DBCAM will recalibrate that guessing BMU with the true capacity of your drive battery. Or you can get apps for your mobile phone etc that tell you what your guessing BMU is showing at the moment including how much it thinks your battery has degraded or SOH (State Of Health) but it does require you get a OBD2 scanner plugged into the OBD2 port (under the dash on the driver's side for us in Australia).

Anyway this will give you a lot to sink in but basically the first decision for you to think about is:

Is 33 kms (with AC) enough for your local daily driving ?

But that is just my opinion.

Regards Trex.

Ps The approx 52kms EV I could get on my PHEVs when new was no AC or heaters good weather and no major hills and majority 60kph but some 40kph zones.

 

[AndyInOz]

For comparison purposes...

Mine is quite old now, but has only done 30,000 km (pretty similar distance to your, much newer car).

I did happen to notice the other day, that the guessometer was showing 42km range when I pulled out of the driveway after a charge.

I do very little driving these days, and am only charging once per week.

You've eliminated brake issues, and driving style.

The only things left are air-cond and battery condition.

Given that it's a 2020 model, my suspicion is that the battery has been damaged somehow.

Perhaps the previous owner only used fast charging stations?

Before you take this up with Mitsubishi, you should try a range test with no air conditioning on, to see how far out of spec the battery is.

Since it's a second hand car, I have no idea how Mitsubishi will respond.

 

[SS2115]

Spec says it should get 54klms and I realise thats in perfect conditions etc etc etc and that realistically in actual driving owners will get less. But I should be getting between 40 and 50klms on an overnight charge or long period of forced charge running on fuel only surely???
Why can I only get 33klms range is my concern.

Ok I will try to keep this simple for now but no matter what anyone says the BMU (Battery Management Unit) on the PHEV is just guessing the capacity of the EV drive battery on the PHEV at any particular time.
So what does this mean? The PHEV never under normal circumstances empties the EV drive battery. It normally only let you empty the drive battery down to approx 30% or slightly lower. Yes, when that battery gauge on our PHEV shows empty there is still approx 30% left in it. But this may/may not apply to the new model PHEV.
So how do you measure the capacity of a battery ? You normally empty it down to a voltage where it is considered empty then measure the amps or current x the time taken to fill to a voltage considered max for that chemistry of battery. Or vice versa charge a battery to full then measure the amps x time to empty. These measures will give a Ah capacity of a battery at any given time.
Now knowing our PHEVS never truly empties the battery normally how does the car know it's capacity to work out say how far the PHEV can travel?
Now I have gone into this in detail in other threads but basically the BMU "guesses" using voltage, age of battery, current in/out etc. Now the thing is all batteries degrade over time or use (cycles) and there are processes, chemistry, thermal management etc that can effect that aging or degradation.
Now when your battery was new it could get about 52 kms from memory at around town speeds of 60 kph or less I found. Now your seeing 33 kms. That could be from degradation and/or a out of whack BMU or even speed AC use etc. But I can assure you will have some degradation or to put it simply a reduction in range from when it was new. That just the physics of our current state of battery technology.
If you are happy with those 33 kms for your driving between charges I suggest you do nothing. If you are unhappy with 33 Kms or you really want to know your true capacity of your EV drive battery or even how much your drive battery has degraded which costs money even under warranty (or it did me) there is a process called DBCAM (Drive Battery Capacity Automatic Measurement) supplied by Mitsubishi. That process totally empties the drive battery (using electric heaters and AC etc) and measures the current taken to charge to full.
Now DBCAM will recalibrate that guessing BMU with the true capacity of your drive battery. Or you can get apps for your mobile phone etc that tell you what your guessing BMU is showing at the moment including how much it thinks your battery has degraded or SOH (State Of Health) but it does require you get a OBD2 scanner plugged into the OBD2 port (under the dash on the driver's side for us in Australia).
Anyway this will give you a lot to sink in but basically the first decision for you to think about is:
Is 33 kms (with AC) enough for your local daily driving ?
But that is just my opinion.
Regards Trex.
Ps The approx 52kms EV I could get on my PHEVs when new was no AC or heaters good weather and no major hills and majority 60kph but some 40kph zones.

Thanks for the detailed reply - much appreciated.
I have an OBD blutooth device from my BM I could use and have seen one of the Apps you mention - it seems to be very popular with PHEV owners and is referred to on YouTube a lot.
But what would make it any more accurate than the "factory" monitoring system if its all a bit of guesswork?
I also have a $2500 Autel Scanner with a BT OBD and have scanned the Outlander a couple of times with no errors found and that included the BMU module. I know thats not all definitive, but at least there are no red flags.
This Mitsubishi battery test you speak of - do you know an approximate cost? I have missgivings of useing the local Mit dealer as it shares its workshop with a large Ford Dealer which doesn't have a good reputation and has the most stupid and agrevating booking and drop off procedure. We tried them once with the wifes ASX and I walked out of there after waiting almost an hour for guys to walk around the car with touchpads and drivers taking the cars away and then when info came up on the receptionists PC being called for an 'interview'. It was so ridiculously complicated and time consuming. Where are the days of driving into a car spot, walking in and handing the keys over and telling the counter person what it was in for.

For comparison purposes...
Mine is quite old now, but has only done 30,000 km (pretty similar distance to your, much newer car).
I did happen to notice the other day, that the guessometer was showing 42km range when I pulled out of the driveway after a charge.
I do very little driving these days, and am only charging once per week.
You've eliminated brake issues, and driving style.
The only things left are air-cond and battery condition.
Given that it's a 2020 model, my suspicion is that the battery has been damaged somehow.
Perhaps the previous owner only used fast charging stations?
Before you take this up with Mitsubishi, you should try a range test with no air conditioning on, to see how far out of spec the battery is.
Since it's a second hand car, I have no idea how Mitsubishi will respond.

I will try with AC off. Is it realistic that AC off could account for say another 10 - 15 kilometres of range?
I think if I saw a recharge of around 43 - 48 kilometres reasonably consistently I'd be happy with such a 'young' car. Its the 33 thats bugging me but if AC is accounting for the guess-o-metre predicting a 33 kilometre range after a months ownership because its including the AC then I'd have to accept it.
If I charge and drive around a bit without AC or heat for a while, how long do you estimate I should start seeing a shift in its range prediction?

 

[Trex]

Thanks for the detailed reply - much appreciated.

My pleasure.

I have an OBD blutooth device from my BM I could use and have seen one of the Apps you mention - it seems to be very popular with PHEV owners and is referred to on YouTube a lot.
But what would make it any more accurate than the "factory" monitoring system if its all a bit of guesswork?

It's not more accurate. The OBD2 scanner and app will show what currently the "guessing" BMU in the PHEV thinks the capacity of the EV battery is and also puts it into an expression called SOH (see my post above).

Now the DBCAM service from Mitsubishi recalibrates that "guessing" BMU with the actual capacity like I said above. Mitsubishi engineers I think obviously knew the BMU could get "out of whack" so they designed a procedure to correct that. In fact from memory there are 10 registers built into the PHEV to store those results over time.

Will try to find that invoice for the DBCAM I did recently on my 2019 PHEV to let you know how much it cost me but it was done during a service and wouldn't be surprised if they don't split it up as it's just a labour cost ie hook up the MUTT3 and my own charger that comes with the PHEV and let it do it's business overnight. They couldn't tie up the MUTT3 during the day so they run the DBCAM overnight for me. By emptying the battery before you get there reduces the time of the process but it still take quite a few hours to run (totally empty battery from approx 30% using fans AC and heater then fully charge it from a 2.4 kW charger).

Now you did say:

If I charge and drive around a bit without AC or heat for a while, how long do you estimate I should start seeing a shift in its range prediction?

From memory just turning off AC makes the GOM (Guess O Meter) jump up 10kms when the PHEV was new. But that decreases as the battery capacity shrinks I think.

Just turn it off and see what you get.

Regards Trex.

 

[SS2115]

Again - many thanks.

 

[SS2115]

Turned the AC off while driving a steady flat 50 klms/hr and it only added 2 extra kilometres to the range. The battery was just a smidgen under half way of its capacity with it flicking between 11 and 13 kilometres remaining AC on or off.

I'll compare after a new full charge again asap. But for now Sydney is in a heat wave with very high muggy humidity so AC remains on.

 

[Rockwallrick]

Living in Florida with our heat and humidity AC is a must but I was surprised that running the AC did not seem to have much impact on the range of our BEV. The range would decrease when the temperature dropped below 50 degrees F and the rare occasions when we needed to turn on the heat!

 

[SS2115]

So charged up last night.
This morning in the driveway told me I had 41klms range.
Turned the AC on before moving and it dropped to 37klms. Turned it back off as cool morning. Hadn't travelled more than 3 metres down the driveway and range dropped to 41 to 40. Short trip to work and its now at 36 with AC off.
So this charge has increased the indicated range even with the AC on from its usual 33 to 37 with AC on and up to 40 with AC off. So maybe its just taking the guess-o-meter time to adjust to my driving demands?
Would love to see about 50 after a charge - then would be very happy.

 

[AndyInOz]

Sorry to take so long to get back to this, but here's a real-world example of temperatures etc. to compare with.

This is after a relatively short round trip on a cool morning (NB not cold).



Note that the blue figures are tyre pressure in PSI, and the green tyre temperature in degrees C.

This is not directly comparable with the temperature of the discs, but should give you something to work on.

 

[jaapv]

So maybe its just taking the guess-o-meter time to adjust to my driving demands?

This. The guessometer only extrapolates the recent past.

 

[SS2115]

Yes - I'm beginning to see the effects of a new driver/owner change.
I've been running the battery completely out and even when it gets to the three dashes I keep going until the motor starts kicking in.
Now are a full uninterrupted charge I'm getting 40 - 41 klms range with AC on and 45 with it off.
And it seems to be lasting a little longer as well - ie: when it gets down to the three dashes, it seems to last just a little longer until the motor starts kicking in. I have been assisting this a little by employing B5 whenever I remember to turn it up which I usually do if I'm going down a long hill, but sometimes just get into the car and drive and forgetting it.

 

[PHEVinSanDiego]

My battery is only charging 5.6KW
That’s crazy
2019 Mitsubishi with 50k miles
I put $1 as cost per KW and in the morning after a full charge I see that the cost of my last charge was $5.66
That’s less than 50% of what it should be???
Clearly my range is bad (12 miles)
What can I do ?

 

[AndyInOz]

I'm not sure that you've provided enough information for people to comment on the amount that you've charged.

Probably step one is to get the car into the hands of a dealership so that they can run tests on the battery.

My battery is rarely charged up from empty, so 5 to 6 kWh would probably be normal for me.

However, your range (12 miles, 19 km) sounds low, depending on all the usual factors.

(Load carried/towed, temperature, average speed, driving style, terrain, brake failure etc.)

If you're experiencing low temperatures at the moment, that may account for a lot of it.

Hopefully forum members will be able to lead you through diagnostic steps.

Before you take the car to a dealer, drive the car, from a full charge, until the battery is empty and record the actual distance covered.
(Remember the guessometer is just trying to guess what range you will get.)
If you've added extra weight to the vehicle by carrying a spare wheel or tool kits, roof boxes etc. remove all that stuff.

Don't drive hard enough to trigger the engine start and don't run cabin heating/cooling.

That will give you a baseline to work from.

When you get to the end of that drive, check to see if the brakes are binding on any wheel (carefully check to see if the wheels are getting hot).