Motors still driving wheels while stationary?

[windymiller]

Ok windymiller,

I'll bite as it sounds very trollish to me. So in your opinion (and you should state that as it is ONLY your opinion unless you can back it with facts and figures or use words like "I think" otherwise you will appear to others as a smart arse. But hey, that is my opinion ) "Applying torque on engaging D is pointless". Well I disagree. I think that it is handy to just crawl along feathering the brake pedal to control speed when needed. One pedal does everything needed in this case when in your case you need 2 IMO .

Or here is a idea. :idea: I think you should get off your arses and be stealthy on your feet, when hunting, like we do here unless spotlighting at night. But hey, that is just IMHO ,

Sorry Trex if it comes across as "trollish" - Not the intention. As I mentioned somewhere else, we also have a Polaris Ranger EV. It doesn't creep at all when forward or reverse is engaged, and its much easier to drive slowly or stop start. It needs (and this is not just opinion....) just the throttle pedal pressing to go, and releasing to stop. You don't floor the pedal to the extent you then need the brakes to stop - You just give it a bit of throttle to move forward, release the throttle and coast to a stop. Or, if you just want to crawl, you give it just enough throttle pedal to attain the speed you need. The motor does just what it needs to do, and there is no excess energy (however little) scrubbed off in the brakes as heat, not to mention wear (however small) in the brake components. To any vehicles behind, there is no annoying brake light glare when its dark, and possibly raining.

Autohold on the PHEV, as mentioned below would be an awful lot better if it didn't hold the brake lights on as well, also causing glare to the vehicle behind.

From my looking at it practically, and yes, in my opinion, then the priorties are wrong. You want to go slowly, so lets tell the car to go quickly, then counter it with brakes, brake lights, wasted energy and wear. Or we could just go slowly in the first place.

Only my opinion of course! Oh, and whoever programs the drive motor controllers at Polaris....

 

[anko]

From my looking at it practically, and yes, in my opinion, then the priorties are wrong. You want to go slowly, so lets tell the car to go quickly, then counter it with brakes, brake lights, wasted energy and wear. Or we could just go slowly in the first place.

From this and other recent posts by you it appears to me that you guys have bought a car (sorry, three cars) that in your case are not fit-for-purpose. Why go after the guys that designed them rather than the guys that made a bad purchase decision?

 

[windymiller]

Whoops, my mistake, sorry - I thought this was the Technical Discussion section of a discussion forum where things technical were discussed.

 

[anko]

Whoops, my mistake, sorry - I thought this was the Technical Discussion section of a discussion forum where things technical were discussed.

Indeed it is. So, why do you keep boring us with your personal preferences and priorities?

 

[jaapv]

Polaris EV? I had to look that one up. Quite a weird machine - a bit like a golf trolley on steroids... :roll: Even more weird to compare it to a car...

 

[anko]

Polaris EV? I had to look that one up. Quite a weird machine - a bit like a golf trolley on steroids... :roll: Even more weird to compare it to a car...

I have driven these before ...
https://www.gozc.nl/onze-club/vloot-en-materieel/rollend-materieel

 

[user 3409]

I fully agree with all the posters who say that having a little bit of torque applied to the wheels all the time is a good idea and it makes the car behave like all auto's (including dual clutch) that I have driven.

However, what nobody has been able to explain is why the motors are powered while the handbrake (including the auto hold) is operating. This just seems superfluous and very slightly wasteful.

As said earlier, I have found that after coming to a stop, with the footbrake applied, the display shows that no power is flowing to the wheels. I then apply the hand/auto brake and take my foot off the brake and the display now shows power flow to the wheels. If I again press the footbrake the torque is then removed and the car sinks down on the suspension.

It's not a problem, I'm just intrigued as to why they programmed it that way.

 

[anko]

I don't think it is programmed that way. Handbrake is simply a separate thing, a mechanical add-on, pretty much like putting a log in front of your wheel. The drive train does not know about it. No brake means creep.

 

[user 3409]

I don't think it is programmed that way. Handbrake is simply a separate thing, a mechanical add-on, pretty much like putting a log in front of your wheel. The drive train does not know about it. No brake means creep.

I sort of agree with you but, when I pull to a halt there is no power to the wheels and when I then apply the handbrake (or auto hold) the power is reapplied, it is then removed if I dab the brakes so its definitely responding to some sort of logic.

 

[Trex]

Sorry Trex if it comes across as "trollish" - Not the intention.

No problem windymiller. Water under the bridge and all that.

In your case of trying to be "stealthy" with the PHEV I would use Neutral while moving forward (when wanting to stop) then put it into Drive without touching the brake pedal to go again. But I would NOT be getting out of the PHEV in this state ie in Neutral and stopped for obvious reasons and obviously this will only work on the flat sections of your drive.

But you are probably doing this already so just ignore my advice.

 

[anko]

II sort of agree with you but, when I pull to a halt there is no power to the wheels and when I then apply the handbrake (or auto hold) the power is reapplied, it is then removed if I dab the brakes so its definitely responding to some sort of logic.

Is the power applied when you apply the handbrake? Or is the power applied only when you release the footbrake (which would also have happened if you hadden't applied the handbrake)?

 

[user 3409]

Come to a stop, foot on brake (no power flow) handbrake on, foot off brake, (power flows) dab brake pedal power stops.

The question is why have power on when stationary with handbrake applied?

 

[elm70]

Is the power applied when you apply the handbrake? Or is the power applied only when you release the footbrake (which would also have happened if you hadden't applied the handbrake)?

Ohh yes ...

This is one of the "gem" of the PHEV with manual handbrake

If the car is not put in park mode, and no foot on the brake pedal .. thanks to some brilliant engineer which decided to copy the limitation of a traditional automatic transmission ... the PHEV power a bit the 4 wheels and try to move even if the handbrake block the car. Causing a big waste of energy and extra stress to the transmission and handbrake.

I think in the new PHEV it is configurable, like in some tesla, to disable the dummy automatic slow forward when car is in drive but no pedal is pressed.

 

[jaapv]

Which begs the question: why not use "P" instead of the handbrake? The car has a brake-hold feature when driving off on an incline. To my mind the handbrake is a parking brake only.

 

[richr]

Having the transmission brake on a button rather than having to move a shifter past neutral and reverse does seem to be very useful thing. One reason people don't use Park in standard automatic transmissions is because passing through R makes the reverse lights come on and can panic the driver behind

I do think any losses or stress incurred whilst stationary for short periods with the handbrake on and in Drive are probably fairly negligible compared to what the car experiences whilst in normal use though, so it's not going to be something that I worry about.

 

[anko]

If the car is not put in park mode, and no foot on the brake pedal .. thanks to some brilliant engineer which decided to copy the limitation of a traditional automatic transmission ... the PHEV power a bit the 4 wheels and try to move even if the handbrake block the car. Causing a big waste of energy and extra stress to the transmission and handbrake.

An engineer can never be smart enough to compensate for not so smart drivers :mrgreen:

 

[elm70]

If the car is not put in park mode, and no foot on the brake pedal .. thanks to some brilliant engineer which decided to copy the limitation of a traditional automatic transmission ... the PHEV power a bit the 4 wheels and try to move even if the handbrake block the car. Causing a big waste of energy and extra stress to the transmission and handbrake.

An engineer can never be smart enough to compensate for not so smart drivers :mrgreen:

Drivers can make mistake all the times ... engineers need to put this in their equations

Now ... copy a limitation of a traditional automatic transmission .... this is and engineer gem :mrgreen:

Luckily they did fix this for the newer PHEV ...

 

[anko]

Now ... copy a limitation of a traditional automatic transmission .... this is and engineer gem :mrgreen:

You do know this is BS, right?

 

[windymiller]

I note a very similar discussion thread on another forum where the pro's and cons of creeping are discussed. Unlike this forum, they seem to be able to discuss the pros and cons without descending into making it personal.

Its obviously a very "Marmite" issue, with a perceived 50/50 split of posters on "the other side" who are either in favour, or against creep. What is interesting however are the references to EV's which creep, and those which do not. Then there is the Tesla which is (sensibly) selectable. I understand that the latest version of the Outlander PHEV may also have creep/no creep selectable, but do not quote me on that! If that is the case, then perhaps Mitsubishi have listened to some of the feedback they get, and realised that making the "no throttle torque" as selectable as, say the behaviour of the fold in mirrors, or the windscreen washers, is what their customers want, and need. Best of both worlds really. Those who want their PHEV to behave like an old epicyclic auto can, and those who want them to behave like a PHEV also can.

 

[greendwarf]

Of course, you can always side-step this argument by driving it like a normal geared car - i.e. into neutral when stopped with handbrake on. Never had an auto, so haven't a clue what you are all talking about! :lol: