Outlander Phev In-Depth Observations - Mike Mas

[LowOnCash]

Hello Outlander Owners - I just completed an In-Depth Article on the Mitsubishi Outlander Phev. This article provides a detailed look at how the new Outlander Heat Pump operates and how it differs from other hybrids and EV’s. I’ll cover HV battery heating and cooling. How to prevent lithium battery “Plating” a permanent damage which occur to lithium batteries during cold weather use. I’ll compare how the Outlander fairs against the Hybrids like the Toyota Rav4. Talk about the dangers of owners switching their AGM 12 volt battery to lithium. Discuss the fact the new Outlander might not be the best plug-in Hybrid for colder regions and how Mitsubishi left out a vital battery component which could leave you and your family stranded in frigid weather. I’ll talk about Innovative Pedal and B-3 / B-5 High Regen, how they work and why they sometimes start the gas engine. PHEV Travel suggestions for added safety and more economy. Finally, introduce “Volting” a Method of Engine / Motor / Cycling which can reduce your engine run time up to 40% on trips using less fuel.

Note: Because of graphics used, I authored the story using QuarkXpress and placed it on my non sponsored /Ad-Free web site. Please click on the link below - Enjoy Mike

Outlander Phev In Depth Observations - Mike Mas

http://rotory.com/PHEV/outlander/

 

[Rudra]

Thanks for most helpful and instructive write up.

I am a complete novice expecting our PHEV in November (ordered in January, we were lucky the dealer had a cancellation).

Reading your ‘Story’ provides understanding and confidence for the years ahead.

 

[kpetrov]

In your article you have said that once you run down the battery (to 60% lets say) you use Save-Hold on the highway later you mention "Volting" method which is Charge mode which one you use finally?

I am using this "volting" method ie Charge from day one cause it keeps the engine in parallel mode constantly instead of series which Save prefers most of the time, at least on my vehicle.

 

[LowOnCash]

In your article you have said that once you run down the battery (to 60% lets say) you use Save-Hold on the highway later you mention "Volting" method which is Charge mode which one you use finally?

I am using this "Volting" method ie Charge from day one cause it keeps the engine in parallel mode constantly instead of series which Save prefers most of the time, at least on my vehicle.

Hello I agree save or charge keeps things in check for traveling whee EV mode seems that it can't make up its mind.

If your just traveling try to keep the battery roughly 60-75% so when regen is available it can be stored in the battery. Volting is another matter, during this travel, you'll be either recharging the battery or using EV mode. A great feature of the Outlander is in either Save or recharge, it forces the engine in Parallel mode where the engine locks up to the front axle for most economy. Keep in mind that regardless of which mode you select, electric is more efficient at low speeds up to roughly 40 mph and the gas engine is more efficient at 40+ mph.

Regards - Mike

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for most helpful and instructive write up.

I am a complete novice expecting our PHEV in November (ordered in January, we were lucky the dealer had a cancellation).

Reading your ‘Story’ provides understanding and confidence for the years ahead.

Hello I'm glad it was a help to you. PHEV's are even more complicated than EV's so there is a learning curve. I've been driving Plug n Hybrids for around 10 years and I'm still learning. The Outlander is great example.

Enjoy your great ride - Mike

 

[kpetrov]

In your article you have said that once you run down the battery (to 60% lets say) you use Save-Hold on the highway later you mention "Volting" method which is Charge mode which one you use finally?

I am using this "Volting" method ie Charge from day one cause it keeps the engine in parallel mode constantly instead of series which Save prefers most of the time, at least on my vehicle.

Hello I agree save or charge keeps things in check for traveling whee EV mode seems that it can't make up its mind.

If your just traveling try to keep the battery roughly 60-75% so when regen is available it can be stored in the battery. Volting is another matter, during this travel, you'll be either recharging the battery or using EV mode. A great feature of the Outlander is in either Save or recharge, it forces the engine in Parallel mode where the engine locks up to the front axle for most economy. Keep in mind that regardless of which mode you select, electric is more efficient at low speeds up to roughly 40 mph and the gas engine is more efficient at 40+ mph.

Regards - Mike

I was asking what are you using, Save or Charge.

Otherwise I don't even fully charging it so I can have regen and make less full charge cycles on it.

 

[Rudra]

Mike, ..you write Regen B2 is 12 kw and high Regen can be up to 94 kw with the display only showing up to 40 kw.

If the mode 4 fast charge rate is 50 kw, is there an explanation of how Regen to battery can be higher than fast charge to battery ?

When using B3-B5 with the engine at 1300 rpm in ‘ready-state’ is the engine running the generator ?.. what would be the kw at 1300 rpm ?

What’s the maximum kw the generator can produce and at what rpm/road speed ?

Is there an optimum rpm and/or road speed for charging ?

 

[Rockwallrick]

Thanks for your Observations and PHEV tips!! We went from HEV ( Cmax ) to BEV ( MachE ) and then decided a PHEV would be a better fit for our needs. We sold the MachE due to a lack of confidence in the Charging Infrastructure! We did a 3K mile road trip up to New Hampshire and back in May and I am now planning for a 5K mile road trip to the west coast and back in October. On our spring road trip I basically used the save mode to keep the battery around 50%. I didn’t do any Chademo charging but was able to get back to full charge at one of the hotels we stayed at in New Hampshire. I switched over to EV mode every time we got stuck in traffic jams on I-95! Overall we got around 30 mpg on that trip which is better than the EPA rating. So far so good after 6 months and 6k miles!

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for your Observations and PHEV tips!! We went from HEV ( Cmax ) to BEV ( MachE ) and then decided a PHEV would be a better fit for our needs. We sold the MachE due to a lack of confidence in the Charging Infrastructure! We did a 3K mile road trip up to New Hampshire and back in May and I am now planning for a 5K mile road trip to the west coast and back in October. On our spring road trip I basically used the save mode to keep the battery around 50%. I didn’t do any Chademo charging but was able to get back to full charge at one of the hotels we stayed at in New Hampshire. I switched over to EV mode every time we got stuck in traffic jams on I-95! Overall we got around 30 mpg on that trip which is better than the EPA rating. So far so good after 6 months and 6k miles!

Thanks for the reply - I had a situation sort of like yours, Picked up new I-Pace. Beautiful car rode good comfort but instead of 280-300 miles I was lucky to 160-180 miles making it worthless. Jag shot themselves in the leg letting the car out before the battery problems were sorted out. We tried a few trips which turned out to be a nightmare. I'm staying with Plug-in for travel not gonna play that charging game. I dumped the I-Pace and we now have a RWD Kia EV-6 for an electric car 325-345 real miles of range. Charges 10-80% in 18 min with its 800 volt pack best car for the money. Enjoy your great Outlander!

Drive Safe - Mike

 

[LowOnCash]

In your article you have said that once you run down the battery (to 60% lets say) you use Save-Hold on the highway later you mention "Volting" method which is Charge mode which one you use finally?

I am using this "Volting" method ie Charge from day one cause it keeps the engine in parallel mode constantly instead of series which Save prefers most of the time, at least on my vehicle.

Hello I agree save or charge keeps things in check for traveling whee EV mode seems that it can't make up its mind.

If your just traveling try to keep the battery roughly 60-75% so when regen is available it can be stored in the battery. Volting is another matter, during this travel, you'll be either recharging the battery or using EV mode. A great feature of the Outlander is in either Save or recharge, it forces the engine in Parallel mode where the engine locks up to the front axle for most economy. Keep in mind that regardless of which mode you select, electric is more efficient at low speeds up to roughly 40 mph and the gas engine is more efficient at 40+ mph.

Regards - Mike

I was asking what are you using, Save or Charge.

Otherwise I don't even fully charging it so I can have regen and make less full charge cycles on it.

Thanks for the reply - I depart with a full battery, run it down 60-70% then use Save. If I hit a few mountains or towns and use up my charge I generally bring it back to around 30 miles for safety. Don't be concerned with the cycles, with so much regen now and fast charging the cycles won't mean a thing unless your keeping the car over 20 years. You can't hardly wear out new lithium batteries before 10-15 years if you keep the temp right.

Drive Safe - Mike

 

[Rudra]

Mike, ..you write Regen B2 is 12 kw and high Regen can be up to 94 kw with the display only showing up to 40 kw.

If the mode 4 fast charge rate is 50 kw, is there an explanation of how Regen to battery can be higher than fast charge to battery ?

When using B3-B5 with the engine at 1300 rpm in ‘ready-state’ is the engine running the generator ?.. what would be the kw at 1300 rpm ?

What’s the maximum kw the generator can produce and at what rpm/road speed ?

Is there an optimum rpm and/or road speed for charging ?

Another question:

Mike writes ‘The New 23’ Outlander has no Battery Heater’.

As the battery is cooled by the a/c system why can the battery not also be warmed by the a/c system ?

Mike writes ‘Outlanders New Heat Pump’ … ‘this same compressor is also used for cooling the car’

 

[kpetrov]

Mike, ..you write Regen B2 is 12 kw and high Regen can be up to 94 kw with the display only showing up to 40 kw.

If the mode 4 fast charge rate is 50 kw, is there an explanation of how Regen to battery can be higher than fast charge to battery ?

When using B3-B5 with the engine at 1300 rpm in ‘ready-state’ is the engine running the generator ?.. what would be the kw at 1300 rpm ?

What’s the maximum kw the generator can produce and at what rpm/road speed ?

Is there an optimum rpm and/or road speed for charging ?

Speaking for 2018 model
Generator max 70kW 14000rpm. After losses 60kW available to front motor.
The engine run at 1700rpm aprox. in normal driving in series mode. if accelerator released drops to 1100rpm

regarding optimum rpm and speed to charge see the graph below

 

[Rudra]

Speaking for 2018 model
Generator max 70kW 14000rpm. After losses 60kW available to front motor.
The engine run at 1700rpm aprox. in normal driving in series mode. if accelerator released drops to 1100rpm

regarding optimum rpm and speed to charge see the graph below

thanks.

When in Charge Mode and stationary (at traffic lights) what is the engine rpm ?.. and the rate of charge ?

 

[kpetrov]

When in Charge Mode and stationary (at traffic lights) what is the engine rpm ?.. and the rate of charge ?

Doesn't matter what the rpms in this case are, that will be the most inefficient thing to do.
Use Charge only on the highway, unless you definitely need to build a charge like for camping.

 

[Rudra]

Doesn't matter what the rpms in this case are, that will be the most inefficient thing to do.
Use Charge only on the highway, unless you definitely need to build a charge like for camping.

thanks.

My questions are for curiosity and to develop an understanding of what the car does…….. I prefer my strategy to be from knowledge rather than following instructions.

Does the car have an engine rpm display ?

 

[littlescrote]

Good principle!

No rpm indicator as std, but you can us OBD data.

 

[kpetrov]

Doesn't matter what the rpms in this case are, that will be the most inefficient thing to do.
Use Charge only on the highway, unless you definitely need to build a charge like for camping.

thanks.

My questions are for curiosity and to develop an understanding of what the car does…….. I prefer my strategy to be from knowledge rather than following instructions.

Does the car have an engine rpm display ?

That wasn't instruction but by knowing rpms you won't know the efficiency of the system.

No it does not have an tachometer cause it is not important to know the rpms since one do not control it in a hybrid vehicle.

BTW it is a misconception that lower the rpms better the efficiency is in a hybrid system. Unlike conventional vehicles in a hybrid one the engine never works in vain in order to aim for lower rpms.

The knowledge regarding Charge mode when in city or stationary compared with when on highway is simple.
The engine in hybrid system can work in two modes:
1. parallel hybrid mode, the engine turn front wheels directly without any energy conversion losses and all excess power available is used to charge the battery with energy conversion losses of course. Parallel mode is available only over 65km/h (41mph) (that's why I have said charge on highway)
2. Series hybrid mode, under 65km/h (41mph) all the energy provided by the engine will be converted to electricity with losses since it can not be directly coupled with the wheels.

Basically since the vehicle is used to move from point A to point B, not to be used as a generator only, the most efficient way to do it is in parallel hybrid mode where one will have less losses of energy conversion. Charge button keeps the vehicle in parallel mode if possible and it is possible only over 65km/h (41mph).

 

[LowOnCash]

Hey guys - thanks for the reply's - Concerning the Outlander's Drive battery in Winter, here’s a few battery images from older Outlander’s which incorporated a battery warming PTC heater circuit. As shown on the 2018 Outlander sticker, the battery warmer was standard equipment. You can find it under Mechanical Features; “ Main Battery Warming System”.

While this past battery heater only worked while being plugged in, it allowed owners to pre-heat the battery before departure, allowing the battery to have additional capacity, prevent battery damage and also prevent the drive battery from getting cold-soaked and shutting down.

My research found two different heaters were used, one heater was side mounted on the battery case and the other integrated into the AC cooling system where the AC fan is used to circulate warm air throughout the battery.

For reasons totally unknown, Mitsubishi did not include a drive battery heater in the new 22-23’ generation Outlander. Even though almost every EV uses some form of a drive battery heater for winter they omitted it. As I mentioned it took me months for them to answer my heater questions and they only admitted there was no heater no other details why? Mitsubishi has been tight lipped on this battery heater decision since a cold-soaked battery could leave the occupants stranded with no way to start the car or even heat the cabin which could result in Outlander being liable.

As I mentioned in my article, if you live up North you should give careful consideration if the Outlander PHEV is going to provide the security and safety needed for yourself and family for winter commutes or trips.


Drive Safe - Mike

 

[Rudra]

The knowledge regarding Charge mode when in city or stationary compared with when on highway is simple.
The engine in hybrid system can work in two modes:
1. parallel hybrid mode, the engine turn front wheels directly without any energy conversion losses and all excess power available is used to charge the battery with energy conversion losses of course. Parallel mode is available only over 65km/h (41mph) (that's why I have said charge on highway)
2. Series hybrid mode, under 65km/h (41mph) all the energy provided by the engine will be converted to electricity with losses since it can not be directly coupled with the wheels.

Basically since the vehicle is used to move from point A to point B, not to be used as a generator only, the most efficient way to do it is in parallel hybrid mode where one will have less losses of energy conversion. Charge button keeps the vehicle in parallel mode if possible and it is possible only over 65km/h (41mph).

okay thanks.

Leaving aside efficiency.. are you saying that Charge is only available above 65 km ?.. and the engine will only run when above 65 km ?

Or if the engine can be set to run at lower speed and stationary what would be the charging rate when set to Charge ?

 

[Rudra]

While this past battery heater only worked while being plugged in, it allowed owners to pre-heat the battery before departure, allowing the battery to have additional capacity, prevent battery damage and also prevent the drive battery from getting cold-soaked and shutting down.

My research found two different heaters were used, one heater was side mounted on the battery case and the other integrated into the AC cooling system where the AC fan is used to circulate warm air throughout the battery.

For reasons totally unknown, Mitsubishi did not include a drive battery heater in the new 22-23’ generation Outlander. Even though almost every EV uses some form of a drive battery heater for winter they omitted it. As I mentioned it took me months for them to answer my heater questions and they only admitted there was no heater no other details why? Mitsubishi has been tight lipped on this battery heater decision since a cold-soaked battery could leave the occupants stranded with no way to start the car or even heat the cabin which could result in Outlander being liable.

As I mentioned in my article, if you live up North you should give careful consideration if the Outlander PHEV is going to provide the security and safety needed for yourself and family for winter commutes or trips.

So the battery is both heated and cooled by the a/c system.
When started and Ready does the a/c immediately direct heat to the battery ?

Will be interesting to see if the missing pre-heater returns in the 2024 model.
Germany doesn’t have the 22-23 model and the 2024 has been announced for Germany (no details yet).